Derrick Harvey's Role on Defense
by silencecs on Oct 20, 2009 2:31 PM EDT
in Meta-Jaguars
37 comments
Since Reggie Hayward went down with a season ending injury, the team has tried to make a 3-4 defense work in Duval. This has resulted in mixed results as the Jaguars have attempted to make their personnel fit the scheme. Derrick Harvey is one of the catastrophes of this misshapen method. He's been forced to take on a role this year that is altogether unfamiliar territory, the role of a 3-4 LB.
Derrick is regularly on the end of the line, standing with his hand off the ground, prior to the snap. Sometimes he rushes the passer, and others he drops into coverage. He's a very awkward looking coverage LB, and seems best fit only in a zone coverage scheme. I shudder to think of him covering a TE or RB on a regular basis (which I've seen him do before, albeit with some success). His lanky frame does seem to cause some issue for opposing quarterbacks when the team uses a zone-scheme. I've noticed Derrick is steadily becoming better at disguising whether or not he's going to rush the passer or drop into zone on any given play. That's a major improvement, and it is a key component to any rushing LB's repertoire. You must be able to disguise your blitz.
This is clearly a man who is built to be a 4-3 defensive end, and some of his struggles rushing the passer may have to do both with his lack of opportunities, and the position switch. He was improving steadily towards the end of last year, and he seems to be playing well this year (especially against the run). I wouldn't call him a bust, but I don't think he'll be the player we drafted him to be as long as he's in a 3-4 scheme. It's clearly stunted his development as a pass rusher to learn new responsibilities. He may still be a great rush LB, but it may take more time for him to develop and get comfortable in his new role.
I also notice that our Nickel defensive line includes Harvey, Groves, Landri, and Ingram (or Smith). That's not a bad pass rushing line, and I've noticed Harvey seems more comfortable operating out of that front, at least it appears so to me. Pressure is the key to fixing the atrocious pass defense. Our secondary is serviceable, and if we could get some pressure, we'll see even more interceptions.
-Collin Streetman
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no here's a piece I agree with :-)
There is absolutely no doubt that Harvey is a 4-3 DE and the 3-4 ’ain’t his bag baby’ (a little Austin Powers verbage for you there). I have been consistent in my assessment of Harvey since day 1 – he’ll be ok but never a consistent impact player / never “great” -and certianly not worth the draft picks we gave up for him. If we had picked him up in the 5th round, I wouldn’t have any complaints.
Pass rush is the key to good pass defense – that’s the ‘Obvious’ observation for the day :-)
10 out 10 on this one Collin :-)
by OGN on Oct 20, 2009 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't even mind having him if we stayed with our pick at 26. The Top-10 dollars are what really causes me concern.
That’s an investment you just can’t make a poor decision on.
The End Is Nigh... www.infowars.com
by silencecs on Oct 20, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you see the nickle defensive line personnel changing
in the December games against the Colts and Patriots ? and maybe even Texans ?
I guess what I’m really asking is do you think they’d stick with this, and leave Henderson on the sidelines, in games where we might to play nickle as our primary defense ?
by pksiv on Oct 20, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great Question PK. I think Hen is a giant man who can't play every defensive snap... Plus
Derek Landri is a great talent, but the very definition of a tweener in the 3-4. He’s too small to play NT/DE, and too big and slow to play LB…
The personnel of our d-line in Nickel may change as we progress, but there’s no doubt that Landri and Harvey will be down linemen in the Nickel Package.
As for the games where we play passing powerhouses… We’ll see a completely different defense against the Colts, as we played the 4-3 until Heyward’s injury in that game. Now we’re exclusively 3-4, and I can’t imagine we’ll go away from that for even one of those next games (Pats or Colts).
Maybe we’ll see Harvey put his hand on the ground as a blitzing LB, or maybe we’ll play Nickel with Henderson and Landri as the DT’s and Groves and Harvey as the DE’s. Henderson is too good to stay off the field alot. When you’re playing Peyton Manning though, he can start the hurry-up and get you stuck with the wrong personnel on the field.
-collin
The End Is Nigh... www.infowars.com
by silencecs on Oct 20, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Collin
Landri is not at all too small for a 3-4 DE. I think hes perfec with his pass rush ability
by harveyismyboy on Oct 20, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He can't two-gap... period.
He’s a pass rushing DE, like you said. 3-4 DE’s have to be able to hold the point against one or two blockers so that they can’t get to the second level and block the LB’s on run plays.
Derek Landri isn’t that guy… he’s a 4-3 DT, and that’s all he can be. I would be in HUGE support of trading Landri for a 3 or 4. If we’re truly committed to this 3-4, which I’m not sure is a great thing, then Landri just isn’t a player who fits the scheme.
Again, I point to trying to make our personnel fit the scheme we run. It’s not going to be pretty until Gene drafts for a 3-4 defense… That’s a huge commitment for a team that can take years to fully realize.
-Collin
The End Is Nigh... www.infowars.com
by silencecs on Oct 20, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*Pass rushing DT* I meant
The End Is Nigh... www.infowars.com
by silencecs on Oct 20, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's actually
a good pass rushing NT on 3rd and long.
Did anyone else notice Harvey playing DT in the same passing situations? Or did anyone see the new guy(Bryan Smith) at DE in passing situations along with Groves/Ingram?
by Ewdtrey on Oct 21, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
waste of space
every time I watch Harvey he does squat. he definitely can’t rush the passer and the Jags could have got a DE that does what he does in the 7th round or free agency. let’s face the facts, the Jaguars had no draft in 2008.
by jagsrealist on Oct 20, 2009 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what bothers me even more is the fact that he was a holdout,
he hasnt earned much of his top ten money yet. I wont go so far as to call him a bust, but the future aint lookin so bright with him either.
by indianajagfan on Oct 20, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
poor guy
i feel for him. watching him play LB, he just doesn’t look right. I’d like to see a 4-3 defense with harvey as the RDE, Henderson and Knighton as the DTs, and Landri as the LDE. We would have some bulk up there, and I think Harvey could turn into an impressive DE.
by abeaugh on Oct 20, 2009 6:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It is stupid what we are doing to Harvey
Big Cat Country!:: The Official Home of the Unofficial Blog of the Jacksonville Jaguars!
by Tkopa on Oct 20, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he showed very few signs
that he can actully do what he was drafting for (sack the QB) I think this “finding a role for him” thing is the best the Jaguars can do with him….
Life without knowledge is death in disguise
by Zoltan from Budapest on Oct 20, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not necessarily
last season, he was second in the nation in qb pressures. not quite sacks, but pretty good for a guy who stupidly held out for most of training camp. give him time at DE and see what happens.
by abeaugh on Oct 21, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After Seattle
I starting to giving up on him….
Life without knowledge is death in disguise
by Zoltan from Budapest on Oct 21, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually like your lineup
except for one change I would make. Even though Landri normally plays DT and he’s nearly 300 lbs, he would be better off as a RE, because Harvey leaves us less vulnerable against the run. In either case however I would guess they would be doing some rotating.
by Ewdtrey on Oct 21, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The $1,000,000 question of the offseason
Do we recommit to the 4-3 or just start over with the 3-4?
by FSBlueApocalypse on Oct 20, 2009 6:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i think it depends..
on the results towards the end of the season.. if the defense continues as is, I wouldl ike to see us back at 4-3. Then again, I am not a coach.. just a fan.
by jerranamo on Oct 20, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heyward and Mincey are out
We don’t have enough people to be a 4-3. When we have enough people we go back to 4-3. Until Jack goes that is (which this entire city hopes is soon).
Big Cat Country!:: The Official Home of the Unofficial Blog of the Jacksonville Jaguars!
by Tkopa on Oct 20, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not the entire city.
In Gene We Trust.
by MoveThoseChains on Oct 20, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that if we do change to a 3-4, then that would be the perfect time to...
Change the pass defense philosophy that this team has had for the last couple of years……
Without the 4-3 I wouldn’t mind a bit more man-man and a bit less Tampa 2……. The safeties are killing our secondary right now
by jaxjags.. on Oct 20, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a note, I know we did change our defensive philosophy
last year with atrocious results….
by jaxjags.. on Oct 20, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word
The 46 is a lot of man, and it wasn’t quite our thing.
If hip hop is dead, then it happened the day that Dilla died.
-Akrobatik
by Bestjagfan on Oct 21, 2009 6:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our defense was actually better last year
Big Cat Country!:: The Official Home of the Unofficial Blog of the Jacksonville Jaguars!
by Tkopa on Oct 21, 2009 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Statistically
But I imagine by the end of the season that that will change when we start facing more teams that aren’t offensive juggernauts
by Ewdtrey on Oct 21, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
must have the personnel to go with a philosphy - if we go to 3-4
you’re talking about a major overhaul of defensive personnel – which would not necessarily be a bad thing
by OGN on Oct 21, 2009 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at near bottom of the league ranking of defense - a personnel overhaul on that
side of the ball is warranted regardless which scheme the Jags commit to.
by OGN on Oct 21, 2009 6:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
though I’d like to keep Tucker for another year or 2, so he can get the necessary guys.
In the face of adversity, what you do from then on dictates who you really are...
by JagsNguyen on Oct 21, 2009 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on who we can draft...
if we’re able to pick up another star DT and maybe someone to replace Hayward either in the draft as well or in FA (hopefully Kampman), I could see us going back to the 4-3. Who is to say Gene doesn’t see better 3-4 players available in the offseason and we trade Harvey and make the switch permanant though… look to the scouting reports for the answer grasshopper!
In the face of adversity, what you do from then on dictates who you really are...
by JagsNguyen on Oct 20, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gene will fix the D through the draft....
D line is the big pink elephant out there on Sunday. I would expect to see Gene take on the D line in 2010 as he did the O line in 2009. Tucker is a 3-4 kinda guy, so I think that this experiment is the future D in Jax. He ran it with Saban and he ran it in Cleveland. First step is getting a 2 gap DT.
by mattarne on Oct 22, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our DT's are fine
its our outside pass rush that’s lacking.
by Ewdtrey on Oct 24, 2009 5:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harvey was considered a potential 3-4 OLB in the draft...
And I still think he can do that. He could also play in a 4-3.
Hell I don’t know. Hopefully the Jags work something out.
by Slvrgun on Oct 20, 2009 9:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We have bad luck
finding places for draft picks. Reggie Williams, supposed to be a pass catcher, turned out to be an over-payed run blocker. Matt Jones, supposed to be the tall speed guy in the end zone, turned out to be the over-payed possession receiver. I’m sure that’s not the extent of drafting misfortune, but it’s the two that come to mind immediately that we found something else for them to do.
by Pyrofish on Oct 21, 2009 12:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Harvey..
I know you guys all jumped on the ‘Harvey cant play OLB’ bandwagon, but show me some footage where it shows he cant? show me where hes been burned in coverage?
what I see is a guy who all his career has been a 4-3 down lineman who is adapting his play to the 3-4 OLB spot.
Last week i saw him make some nice tackles, cover some people adequately and get some reasonable pressure.
What we’ve asked him to do is a hell of a lot in a few weeks, its a complete position change. He now has to rush, cover, make the stops.
I firmly believe that we will see improvements in his play all season, hey MJD is supposedly too small to play RB – so why cant Harvey be too tall to play OLB?
by Joeyy89 on Oct 21, 2009 3:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually
For only his sixth game doing it, I think he is playing quite well. I’ve seen him have some pass breakups down the seam, and like Ewdtrey said on another thread quarterbacks want to stay away from a guy that tall with long arms like his. Last Sunday i was watching him and Reggie, neither got beat once…
If hip hop is dead, then it happened the day that Dilla died.
-Akrobatik
by Bestjagfan on Oct 21, 2009 7:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
^^
Also i believe that we will see that he will start to create more pressure on opposing QB’s.
And I really liked what i saw from Q Groves after rewatching the gamefootage last week.
by Joeyy89 on Oct 21, 2009 3:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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