Are the Jaguars a Young Team?

by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 6:59 AM EDT in Meta-Jaguars Comment 46 comments

More photos » by Michael Perez - AP

Jaguars 2008 number 8 overall selection Derrick Harvey represents the youth of the Jaguars. Players such as himself must succeed for the team to follow suit.

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"We’ve taken a very aggressive approach at it; the amount of turnover is unusually large and you can’t continue to do that and have much success. Part of that was moving on, purging guys that just didn’t fit," Del Rio said. "We do have a young team."

I read that and nodded, yes they are a young team. But, then I thought about it. "Hey wait a minute, what does that actually mean?" I thought. A young college team is freshmen and sophomores that probably won't contend for the National Title, I get that. Is a young pro team a lot of rookies? Is it a lot of first and second year guys? What exactly is Jack telling us? I really don't know so I'll leave that question for the comments. Let's look at who the Jaguars kept, and what youth there is on the squad.

Offensive Line: The preseason starting lineup has been Tra Thomas (12th year), Vince Manuwai (7th year), Brad Meester (10th year), Mo Williams (9th year), Uche Nwaneri (3rd year), Tony Pashos (7th year) and Dennis Norman (9th year). I know they want to work Eben Britton and Eugene Monroe in but they should have to earn a spot over a lower performing veteran. I don't see a young team here; in fact this is a group of veterans that should be dependable.

Offensive Backfield: David Garrard is the QB (8th year), Gregg Jones at FB (6th year), Maurice Jones Drew RB (4th year). If you include Tight Ends, we have Marcedes Lewis (4th year), Ernest Wilford (6th year), Greg Estandia (3rd year). Again, a strong group of veterans that should be ready on game day, in fact climbing into their most productive years.

Receivers: Torry Holt is the number one receiver (11th year), Troy Williamson is number two (5th year), number three receiver will probably be a rookie.

Offensive Summary: One guy on the starting offensive team will be a rookie. If they decide to go with Monroe and Britton, they will have dependable veterans right behind them. To be honest, unless there is a problem with the players on this team, this amount of experience on offense should be able to deliver a competitive performance.

Let's look at the defense.

Defensive line: John Henderson (8th year), Reggie Hayward (9th year), Derrick Harvey (2nd year), Quentin Groves (2nd year), Terrance Knighton (1st year), Derek Landri (3rd year), Rob Meier (10th year). Basically I see a nice mix of veterans and youth in here with most of the youth represented by second year guys, Groves and Harvey. I can give a slight nod to youth here, but not inexperience. This line is not as seasoned as the offensive line but is a nice combination of fresh legs and wisdom.

Linebackers: Daryl Smith (6th year), Justin Durant (3rd year), and Clint Ingram (4th year). Brian Iwuh (4th year), Adam Seward (5th year) all represent the core of the lineup. There is nothing but experience in this group and should represent an easy bunch to coach to be productive.

Defensive Backfield: The starters look to be Rashean Mathis (7th year), Brian Williams (8th year), Reggie Nelson (3rd year), Gerald Alexander (3rd year), Sean Considine (5th year) Tyron Brackenridge (3rd year), Scott Starks (5th year), Brian Witherspoon (3rd year) and Derek Cox (rookie). I know they would like to integrate Derek Cox into the lineup but the basic starting lineup will have 3 years or more experience.

Defensive Summary: Harvey, Groves and Knighton represent the true youth in the defense and the line is on the younger side. Other than that, the backfield has a strong mix of experience and should know what is expected. Maybe a slight nod to lack of playing experience?

My Take: When I looked at it, I was surprised at how much experience the Jaguars have. They don't resemble a young college team. If we can't post 8 wins with this group, Gene has more work to do. A lot more.

So help me understand, what do you think Jack is trying to say?

- Terry O'Brien

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If you are using age, the jags may be one of the older teams.

Here is a link with the 2008 starting line up average ages:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/columnists/rgosselin/stories/092108dnsponflcenterpiece.8efc09.html

In 2008, the Jaguar’s starters had an average age of 27.95, sixth oldest in the league. I am not sure that will change much in 2009. It depends who ends up starting on the O line for it to change much.
I used to have a list for the average age of the whole team, but could not find it this time.
The average age for all NFL players in 2008 was 26.8 years [I believe], so the Jags are not tremendously older.

by NorthLeft12 on Sep 2, 2009 8:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Great research Terry

And let’s not forget what Vic just said (again) in the other night:
Your team is only a young as your QB. If we take that, then this is a very experienced team

Life without knowledge is death in disguise

by Zoltan from Budapest on Sep 2, 2009 8:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Write that question to Vic!

I would love to see his answer!

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by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will ask him

later today, I hope he will answer it!

Life without knowledge is death in disguise

by Zoltan from Budapest on Sep 2, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He seems to live for your questions

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by TheTealDeal on Sep 2, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jack is smoking crack and making excuses.

I have not really been a big Del Rio Fan, since he came on board. So excuse me if my comments are biased in that regard.

However, there is no way one could consider Jacksonville a young team. How does a young team go and sign an OLD WR like Torry Holt, instead of trying to get young and talented WR like Boldin or Marshall.

We might as well go get Marvin Harrison too.

My point is that we are veteran club that really plays inconsistent football under del rios leadership.

In the end, I hope the old jags can at least get 10 wins this season.

by Dale J. on Sep 2, 2009 8:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow- Your first post

and you come out swinging.

Welcome to the site and look forward to more discussion.

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by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Welcome aboard

I’m totally on board with your JDR comments. A few us have come to the same conclusions. For me, his teams are inconsistent from year to year and from game to game. And his divisional record flat out sucks.

I do however, disagree with you regarding the WR’s. Last year’s WR corp was THE worst in the NFL – period. Subsequently, Gene gutted it – correctly so in my view. I love the Holt signing. He is an all pro and has acted as mentor to an otherwise very young and rebuilding WR corp. He also still has some productive years left – although it is generally acknowledged that his better playing days are behind him. Holt’s work ethic, charcater, and actual accomplishments on the field cannot be denied. His mentoring is where his true value will be with this team.

by OGN on Sep 2, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And lets not forget

we didn’t have to give up ANYTHING to sign Holt and his contract is team friendly. Boldin and Marshall are both under contract so signing them would’ve required a significant trade and to me, that price is too steep.

by pksiv on Sep 2, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just think no 1st or second round draft picks

horrible

by TheTealDeal on Sep 2, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

a young wr like Boldin?

LateRoundPick.com

by Surteal on Sep 2, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

or a well-tempered and good-for-locker-room-chemistry WR like Marshall?

You have no room to criticize JDR.

by MoveThoseChains on Sep 2, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Experience isn't commutative

Just because you have two experienced tackles, their experience doesn’t translate to the two rookie tackles. If you start the two rookies, then you have a young offensive line. Manuwai and Mo Williams aren’t going to help them when Dwight Freeney starts putting the moves on them.

You also have to look at number of years as a starter. Just because the guy has been in the league for a few years doesn’t mean that he has three years of experience under his belt. If it is his first year starting, then he is still a “young guy” going through all the same growing pains.

by acedarney on Sep 2, 2009 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

So do you think the Jags are a young team?

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by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Other than quarterback and defensive tackle

I would say “yes.” The old guys (Tra Thomas, Torry Holt, etc.) are just plugs until the young guys can figure it out.

According to Vic though, you’re only as young as your quarterback, so there is a concern there. If the Jaguars cut Rob Meier and go with say Landri, Knighton, Henderson, and Ellison, I would consider that position to be young as well.

by acedarney on Sep 2, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

When you say "young" what do you expect?

Do you expect lower performance from a ’young" line?

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by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not necessarily

I expect the coaching staff to try to help those guys out (like using a RB to chip the end). I expect mistakes.

I also expect improvement over time and reduction in those mistakes.

by acedarney on Sep 2, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks!

One more question….

Would you sacrifice a season for rookie development? Would you put in Eugene and Eben and Derek and Knighton and Thomas (either or both) to build a future and possibly drop three games early or…

Would you start the veterans and work the rookies in at a different pace? How would you as coach and GM plan the jaguars 2009 season? Play the best guys or play the youngest guys?

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by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Personally

I’ve always liked starting the younger player. For instance, if Monroe and Thomas are of equal ability (or even if Thomas is slightly better), I’d play the rookie. The young guy will get better while the old guy will get worse. There’s no better way to gain experience than through playing time. If you have a mediocre season this year, but a better season next year (than if you didn’t start your rookies), then I’m willing to sacrifice this season.

For the record, Derek Cox would probably not get much playing time early on (on my imaginary team) over the other corners because he hasn’t played all preseason. However, if he had, I would advocate starting him as well. The way Brian Williams is playing, though, that could still happen even with one preseason game under his belt.

by acedarney on Sep 2, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why the hell does it matter?

Just fricking win.

by Slvrgun on Sep 2, 2009 11:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You might have missed the point

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by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Overall Age Doesn't Matter

It’s your core guys’ ages that matter; not the entire roster. The Colts are a “young” team but if old man Manning goes down they’re a below average team. If you disagree with this assessment let me know, but out of our offensive starters I believe the following are/were core guys. I know some of you may say what about this guy or that guy, but these guys, imo, are/were the players that make this team work now.

Oline:
Meester (Above Average at this point, but on the decline) 32
Manuwaii (Could be good/great depending on the knee) 29

Skill Positions:
Garrard: (Above Average, could be good-great) 31
MJD: (Great, only question is how he holds up carrying the load) 24
Greg Jones (Good, as long as he’s healthy) 28

That’s how I see it: 5 core guys on offense. That average age is 28.8 years old; pretty old considering that 2 of them are over 30 and only 1 is under 27. Meester is quickly declining it seems since last season, and imo David and Vinny are somewhat question marks this season.

Overall Offensive Starter Age: 29.18

Ignore the hype; look at the results.

by harperslaw on Sep 2, 2009 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Part 2: Defense

Remember, this is the core part of the defense.

D-Line:
Henderson (Good-Great if committed, average if distracted) 30

Linebacker:
Daryl Smith (Good) 27

Secondary:
Rashean Mathis: (Good) 29

Core average age: 28.6
Starters average age*: 26.7 (including Brian Williams at CB – I know, yell at me for that)

So what’s that mean? Shack Harris did a crappy job with the draft. Vic is right to say at times offensive experience will have to carry a young defense and vice versa. Right now it’s the offense that should carry the team (as evidenced by their age). However, I don’t think there’s enough talent on either side to call this a young team. The defense has hope (Harvey, Groves, Durant, Ingram, Cox) but they need to really coach those guys up, and they need to step up to accept the challenge. If not then it will set this team back down the road.

Overall: Young on defense, old on offense.

Ignore the hype; look at the results.

by harperslaw on Sep 2, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

See my message below:

What is your starting lineup for the calculation of average?

by acedarney on Sep 2, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

On Defense I went safe as well

D-Line: Harvey (22), Hayward (32), Henderson (30) – Note: did not include a 2nd d-tackle as it will be a rotation

Linebackers: Ingram (26), Durant (23), Smith (27)

Secondary: Mathis (29), Williams (I know, I know 30), Considine (26), Nelson (25)

The defense, the more I think about it, is just about to hit puberty. Let’s hope it goes well.

Ignore the hype; look at the results.

by harperslaw on Sep 2, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Offensive Starter Average

What is your starting lineup for this calculation?

by acedarney on Sep 2, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Safe choices

Thomas (34), Manuwaii (29), Meester (32), Williams (30), Pashos (I know, yell and disagree now, 29)

I didn’t include Monroe or Britton yet as they have not even played a “real” NFL game. They could be starters, and later, core guys down the road. But right now I consider them a hopeful unknown.

Ignore the hype; look at the results.

by harperslaw on Sep 2, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What's promising

Is that if Monroe, Britton, and Nwaneri (who is battling Mo Williams for the starting job) replace those guys, then you’re looking at a drastically different number. It will be interesting to see how the season ends age-wise. If it’s much younger, then they’re moving in the right direction.

by acedarney on Sep 2, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It'd be nice

But I really don’t see Nwaneri as a long term fix at RG. I think he’d be ok, but not like Mo in his prime. I think they could grab another, younger, better guy in the draft.

Just replacing those 3 guys though would make the offense’s average age 26.9 – significantly lower.

Ignore the hype; look at the results.

by harperslaw on Sep 2, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What an amazing and informative discussion...

Terry, great job on the article and moderating the discussion. Great perspectives everyone, and Acedarney, great comments as well brother…

This is what makes this the top sports site on the internet in my opinion. You could never have discussions like this on ESPN’s message boards or the Jags message boards. Poor format and idoit commenters litter most sites, but The Big Cat continues to impress me. I love our little corner of the internet(s). :)

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by silencecs on Sep 2, 2009 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Here are possibilities I thought when I read Jack's comment

1) We area young team because we plan to play the rookies so give us some time to develop.

2) We area young team in that we have had to integrated new people and we haven’t learned to play together as a team.

3) We have a young team in both turnover and rookies, so blame Gene if we don’t do well.

No matter what, i do think we have enough experience and talent to expect to do well. I don’t see a total rebuilding and Gene says the same. Maybe not playoffs, but not anyone’s pushover and that is fine with me this year.

Collin – Nice to hear from you!!

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by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd go with number 2.

The team only has as much experience as it has together, especially on the lines. Also, many of the backups are rookies or second year players.

by Kbot on Sep 2, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think that is it too

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by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Two things about your analysis Terry

First, players like Nwaneri, Estandia, Iwuh, Ingram, and everyone in the secondary not named Mathis or Williams technically have been in the league for multiple years, but have never/rarely started and have spent most of their time as low-depth backups or special teams players or practice squad players. You’re not exactly a seasoned veteran if you’ve been in the league 3 years as a special teams player and then all of a sudden are fighting for a starting spot. That’s youth and turnover and everything that JDR is talking about.

Second, the youth is at some very important positions. I hesitate to call Troy Williamson young, but he’s definitely not experienced at being good either. Every receiver except Holt therefore is inexperienced, and there is youth at other premium positions like both DEs, Knighton/Landri’s DT spot, MLB, and even HB with Jones-Drew.

In other words, inexperience = youth. Just because this is going to be your third year in the league doesn’t make you eligible for the pro football nursing home nor does it mean you’ve picked up quality football time in real game situations while riding the pine.

by MoveThoseChains on Sep 2, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Or, in harveyismyboy terms,

JDR could beat you up, so lay off him. You’re an idiot, OGN.

Haha :)

by MoveThoseChains on Sep 2, 2009 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

For a moment Ithought you were going to engage in a meaningful discussion

My mistake, sorry.

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by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Haha

His trolling is a fun little breather.

But seriously, I would say that the combination of inexperience and youth at very important positions – including 2-3 spots on the offensive line, nearly the entire defensive line, linebacker, receiver, and much of the secondary – is what Jack is talking about when he says that this is a young team. And sure, young teams sure can pleasantly surprise you, like the Marlins in baseball, but young teams sure can disappoint and go through intense growing pains….like the Marlins in baseball.

So yes, this team could easily win 8 games, but expectations should be measured in terms of year-long progress rather than wins.

by MoveThoseChains on Sep 2, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

post of the day right there

LateRoundPick.com

by Surteal on Sep 2, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

?????

The offensive line and linebackers are the most experienced group.

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by Tkopa on Sep 2, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Disagree

Durant has never played MLB before, and he only has two years of part-time service under his belt. Iwuh will probably be the top backup, and he has only been a special teams player. And whenever the Jaguars line up in a 3-4, Groves will likely be a linebacker as well, playing at a new position in only his second year in the NFL.

Monroe and Britton are both rookies, and Nwaneri, who be starting at RG, is one of those jars on the shelf that got taken off the shelf because of injuries last year. By the end of the year, 3 of the 5 starters including both tackles will be the kind of young players JDR is talking about. That is hardly what I call seasoned.

by MoveThoseChains on Sep 2, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs