Thank God he wasn't fired
by harperslaw on Jan 3, 2011 4:57 PM EST
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PrintWeeb Ewbank was a foreign name to me. But in checking profootball references coaching records, it stuck out that the man had coached 20 years, and had an all time record of .502 (130-129-7). “What did that man do that was so special to allow him to hang around as a head coach for 20 years with a worse winning percentage than Jack Del Rio?”
Ewbank was only the coach of the Baltimore Colts (NFL Champions in 1958 and 1959). In 1958 he was the winning coach of the “Greatest Game Ever Played”. However, in 1962 Colt’s owner Carroll Rosenbloom fired him for the Colts’ slipping performance.
In 1963 Ewbank was hired by the Jets. Ewbank went on to win Super Bowl III over his former team, the Baltimore Colts.
In 20 years Ewbank only coached in 5 playoff games. He went 4-1 in the playoffs, winning 2 NFL Championships, the AFL Championship, and the Super Bowl. Imagine that for a moment. 4 Playoffs in 20 years? Today that would be unthinkable.
Yet Ewbank is in the Hall of Fame, and remembered as one of the best coaches of the era.
Also, and we Jacksonville fans might want to remember this, he had Johnny Unitas and Joe Namath. Maybe it is players not plays?
What if Ewbank had been fired in today's impatient sports world? Would the "Greatest Game Ever Played" have been played? Would Joe Namath have been able to guarantee a victory over the Colts? Perhaps we need to take a step back, breathe, and see what the roster and the future holds in store for next year.
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wow...
thanks for that analogy..everything in the world couldnt be much different today than back then..and i dont think after 8 years makes anyone impatient! im glad he didnt get fired this year though. think it would have set the team back more. if he isnt gone next year. then i can only imagine it will have been a good year..or WW has been forced into a mental institution and out of football.
by chrisltr22c on Jan 3, 2011 6:19 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
it's a different world, that's for sure
The scrutiny on Namath was nothing compared to today. Coaches and players didn’t get dissected 24/7.
Lousy analogy
Sorry, that poop doesn’t float.
Ewbank coached in a day when there was no such thing as playoffs. Only the top qualifiers in each conference (and Super Bowl-forward, league) played, and that was the championship game.
I know you had to dig hard for that one, too… I went to PFR as well, and want to point this one out… Of the top 20 coahces in terms of longevity, you purposely picked the worst one. The next closest was Dan Reeves at .535, 25 games over .500. Every other coach besides Ewbank was at least 20 or more games over .500.
So forget the straw man, and let’s talk facts. This team has collapsed with the playoffs in their grasp two years in a row. Blame the personnel all you want, but other teams come down the stretch with injuries and don’t falter the way we have. Talk all you want about the players liking him, but is that supposed to make up for that? Gimme a freaking break…
I’m not changing anything – I have tickets, and that won’t change. But the excuses people are making for him & the rationalization is just beyond me. Did he “overacheive” with this team? You can’t just look at the middle of the season & applaud him – he has to take his lumps for the blowouts early on and the collapse at the end, and we have to admit what we’ve got here – a mediocre coach who will never coax anything more than a mediocre effort out of talent ranging from fair to good.
Del Rio will never win big here without excellent personnel. Other coaches have achieved much more with much less, and continue to do so. If you’re happy with mediocre, and are will to accept that this level of talent should never be more than 8-8, then enjoy. Good coaching does more than that, and we don’t have good coaching.
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To paraphrase a famous bumper sticker... I've got no problem with Tebow. It is his fans I can do without.
One additional stat...
Del Rio is the first coach since the NFL merger in 1970 to lead the same team for eight years without winning a division title.
---
To paraphrase a famous bumper sticker... I've got no problem with Tebow. It is his fans I can do without.
Perhaps
1. I simply sorted pfr by winning percentage. Bum Phillips also had a similar winning percentage (.516). John Fox was slightly below Del Rio (.508).
2. It’s true they didn’t have playoffs like they do today. However, as you pointed out, Del Rio has not won a division title in 8 years. Ewbank had 16 combined seasons of “no playoffs”.
3. We both could throw coaching stats back and forth like there’s no tomorrow. However, I think you missed the big picture here. The fact is that in today’s modern NFL Ewbanks would have been let go probably before the 1958 season. And that would have been a damned shame. His first 5 years with the Jets produced a record of 29-35-6. He probably would have been let go prior to the Jets’ Superbowl run of 1968.
The point of this article, which you missed, was that patience is not always a bad thing. Was Ewbank a good coach? He had 9 losing seasons, 4 seasons of .500, and only 7 winning seasons. Fans now days would be clamoring for his head. Yet he produced 2 of the most memorable games in NFL history and, though I did not know who he was before looking, should be remembered for that contribution. Without him would the NFL be what it is today?
Ignore the hype; look at the results.
Let's look at 2 teams I can think of
off the top of my head…The Benglas and Titans. They’ve both won a Division title since Del Rio has been head coach.
But honestly, would you prefer to be in the position each team is in right now or the one we’re in as Jaguars fans ?
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
What are some examples of a coach doing much more with much less?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~Carl Sagan
thing is
with free agency and salary caps, there should be a level playing field.
Personally, I feel it starts at the top. You have good owner and personnel dept (GM, scouts) then odds are you have coaches with long tenures.
part of the reason del rio hasnt won a division title
is because the colts have been so consistant. USually 12-4 wins u a division and 11-5 sometimes wins you a division. Both times the Jaguars failed to win the division.
another part of the reason he hasn't won a division title
is that in a year like this when the Colts are floundering, he and the team s*** their pants when the division is theirs for the taking…
It’s been hard to win the AFC South during Peyton’s time in the league, but it hasn’t been impossible. The Titans have done it. It’s football. It’s supposed to be hard.
the inevitable eventuality
To all those who think ‘thank god – this would have set us back a year or two" I’ve got a real news flash for you — retaining JDR will set this franchise back another couple of years:
1) we will not make the playffs next year – same coaching staff and same inconsistent QB — I have YEARS of evidence on my side on this – so I don’t think one needs to be Nostradamus to precidct this one (I suspect that the attendance at Everbank will reflect this also next year – stay tuned). Losing meaning =ful games has become habitual with this staff – again YEARS of evidence to support this.
2) new QB — IF we get a ‘franchise’ QB in the draft – this coaching staff will not play him due the pressure to keep thier jobs – thus retartding the growth and development of said QB – we’ll lose at least a year on this alone.
3) by not bringing in new leadership this year, we’ll lose one year of transition.
Bottom line – I think this move will set this frachise back at least 2 years (that’s in addition to how many ‘years away’ you think we are).
I know that there are plenty who think that JDR is some sort of Lombardi, Shul, Knoll, and Bilechik all roled into one – you’re entitled to your opinion – but the perponderance of evidience doesn’t support you position.
Go Jags!
"Telling numbers: In 2004, 2006, 2009 and 2010, the Jaguars had control of their playoff fate only to give it up with a poor finish." - Kuharsky
Keep chopping foot
Just curious
If Gene Smith had been in the GM spot for the past 8 years, do you think this team would still be where it is today ? Better ? Worse ?
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
hard to say
Gene hasn’t "hit’ on all his picks either – no one ever will so that’s not a slight. Given what I beleive THIS coaching staff to be (habitual gaggers) my estimation is that we’d probably be about the same.
Everyone is very fond of quoting Vic’s players not plays mantra — but the reality is is that this is professional football and every team has ‘players’ to some degree or another. Coaching and especially effectively game planning has far more importantance in the pros than it does or ever will in college.
Here’s a little tidbit – Mr JDR took more direct control of the defense this year – correct? So – with ‘improved’ personnel on that side of the ball from last year we went from23rd ranked D in 2009 to the 28th ranked D in the league this year. This I’m sure predicated WW’s edit that JDR is no longer to call defensive plays. I find that very telling as well and an item that is conveniently being overlooked by you appologists out there.
"Telling numbers: In 2004, 2006, 2009 and 2010, the Jaguars had control of their playoff fate only to give it up with a poor finish." - Kuharsky
Keep chopping foot
by OGN on Jan 4, 2011 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
I just find it hard to believe that
this team would be where it is today if even half of the FAILED draft picks during the Shack had been better. I’m talking about guys like Matt Jones, Reggie Williams, Reggie Nelson Harvey and Groves etc… If just a couple of guys taken with those picks had been sufficient starters, this team would be better.
The problem with a young team is always that it completely lacks depth. And I think that’s easy to see with this current roster.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
I do agree that we lack quality depth
D’Anthony Smith going down in training camp sucked big time. Look – it’s a moot point now – JDR is on for another year and I knew he would be. 2 years remaining on his K was just too big for WW to swallow – I don’t care what he says publicly AND we all know he is loathed to make a HC change.
I truely and sincerely want this team to win and make the playoffs – I simply do not have any faith in the current coaching staff to get that done. And with all due respects to ‘your boy’ DG is not the QB to get us there either.
In the final analysis – I beleive we will have to make a coaching change AND get a franchise QB — that change alone will take 2 – 3 years to yeild anything.
"Telling numbers: In 2004, 2006, 2009 and 2010, the Jaguars had control of their playoff fate only to give it up with a poor finish." - Kuharsky
Keep chopping foot
Personally
I love that I support a team with an owner that isn’t quick to pull the plug on the coach. Or playing musical QB.
I mean, how has changing coaches worked in DET, OAK, DEN, CLE, WAS, DAL, MIA, SF, ARI ?
The Bills have had 4 head coaches since JDR was hired. That’s really worked out for them, hasn’t it ?
Heck, SD even fired a coach that made the playoffs consistently but couldn’t get to the SB and now where are they ? They won a couple playoff games but still no SB.
Sure, it’s worked out in Atlanta, but they too have had 4 coaches since JDR started…
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
8 years can hardly be considerd 'musical chairs'
I’m not advecating a new coach every year – but there comes a time when it’s time cut bait and go in a new direction.
All your examples are certainly cute – but they cannot erase the FACT that THIS coaching staff consistently falls short with playoff spots on the line – tjhey simply can’t get it done.
This is not a new position for me – I came to this conslusion last year and this year has only solidified my belief that we go nowhere with the current staff.
"Telling numbers: In 2004, 2006, 2009 and 2010, the Jaguars had control of their playoff fate only to give it up with a poor finish." - Kuharsky
Keep chopping foot
by OGN on Jan 4, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
That time was 2 years ago when they gutted the front office
and most of the roster.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
The team was only a couple of plays away from winning the division. If David doesn’t throw the INT in the redzone against Indy and we win that game and thus the division, do you still feel the same way? Was that coaching or players?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~Carl Sagan
you can throw all the excuses you want to players, coaches whatever
the fact remains that for (insert your excuse du joir here) this staff cannot get this franchise to perform when it matters most. we have multiple years (not one play, not one game, not one seaon – YEARS of repleat examples).
Look – this is all moot – JDR and co are back for another rerun of this movie next year – so it’s irrelevant discussion.
I’m not changing my mind – and you’re not changing yours – there’s nothing left to be said.
"Telling numbers: In 2004, 2006, 2009 and 2010, the Jaguars had control of their playoff fate only to give it up with a poor finish." - Kuharsky
Keep chopping foot
by OGN on Jan 4, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
I am not sure but we let go of some good players too...
Actually groves played well for the Raiders but was moved to OLB…not bad for his first year there..Alualu I hate to say wasn’t worth his pick…He played alot and was really not very effective in the end of the season…
Jags gave up Mike Peterson who had a very good year….Bottom line I think Mike Smith was responsible for the teams successes in the past….And just like the real world his boss got the credit…
And Jack Del Rios mind to coach defense against the offensive mind of Peyton Manning? Please I would take manning any day of the weak…
Coaches are suppose to motivate players and look over the game plan of the OC and DC…Del Rio doesn’t inspire players I would say just look at them…Our defensive backs play like they’re scared..
Couldn't disagree with your assessments more
What has Groves done in Oakland ? I don’t remember hearing his name much when we played them…
Falcons fans talk about Mike Peterson like we talked about Reggie Nelson. I live in Atlanta and have a great many friends who are die-hard Falcons fans. Matt Ryan is the reason the Falcons are successful. Not Mike Smith.
And can we stop comparing everything to Peyton Manning ? Seriously, he is the exception, not the rule. There is NO COACH, not supported by a great defense, that I would take to outwit Peyton Manning.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
I think we'd be toe to toe with the Colts annually
assuming we hit on the quarterback selection during that timeframe.
The quarterback position definitely would not have been ignored all those years. When Manning or Brady goes those teams will regress big time.
About #2
Has having a QB sit for a year ever hurt? Aaron Rodgers sat for years behind Brett Farve and I don’t think that hurt him. Let’s say the Jags do draft Gabbert, it’s not going to hurt him to be David’s backup for a year. If anything it will help him because he’ll get to watch and learn plus pre-season will help as well. If Brunell doesn’t get hurt Leftwich would have been Mark’s backup for the 03 season.
I'll take Peyton Manning at his word on this one
Play right away – it’s the only way to truely learn and adjust to the speed of the game.
"Telling numbers: In 2004, 2006, 2009 and 2010, the Jaguars had control of their playoff fate only to give it up with a poor finish." - Kuharsky
Keep chopping foot
by OGN on Jan 4, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Peyton is the exception
not the rule.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
that's not the trend nowadays
Ryan, Flacco, and Bradford played their rookie years. Any bets that Luck plays right away?
And Manning was referring / responding to a direct question – in your opion (Peyton Manning) is it best to sit a rookie QB or play him right away - his response was to play him right away. Given the caliber and smarts of that guy – I’ll take his word on that.
"Telling numbers: In 2004, 2006, 2009 and 2010, the Jaguars had control of their playoff fate only to give it up with a poor finish." - Kuharsky
Keep chopping foot
by OGN on Jan 4, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
They've drafted a few QB's in Indy since Peyton took over
so Peyton thinks they should’ve been starting ahead of him so they could get experience ? Of course not.
The situation must be taken into account. If DG isn’t on the team next year, and we’re left with Todd Bouman, of course you start the rookie.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
Ryan and Bradford
were top-5 picks. And Flacco went to a team with a VERY good defense and running game, much like Roethlisberger, where he wasn’t expected to do very much right away.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
don't know about that
Weaver was pretty adamant about the New Era starting quickly. If memory serves wasn’t Brunell kind of banned from the training facility?
It depends on the protection
If he is going to get killed and shell shocked, then let him sit and watch and learn.
WTF IS THE INTERNET?!?
The problem with this arguement is this...
Aaron Rodgers sat behind Brett Farve….A guy with more experience at QB than Del Rio has in coaching and playing…To better equate the whole Jags offensive coaching unit couldn’t help a back up like Brett Favre could that is just my belief…The Jags are in a bad spot..We tried to develop a running game but we invested too much this way…Teams can focus on Jones Drew and take him out the game….Then whats left? Prety much nothing…As for teams developing for the future…I will gladly pick the Texans to be the team of the future in our division…No way are the Jags further along than them….They need a DB too and thats it….They have a great offense in teh works…Dline that had injuries….Great linebacker…All the areas we still need…
You've never read anything about Brett Favre's mentoring
apparently.
He has NEVER helped the young QB’s. The reason he was traded to the Packers in the first place was because he was a malcontent and disruptive to the other QB’s on the team. That and the fact that he was 0-4 with 2 INT’s in Atlanta.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
Well then basically what your saying is this
That it doesnt matter who a QB sits behind its just a matter of the QB being a diamond in the rough…Basically its coaching that works a system if you ask me and plug in whoever you feel…I do not think the patriots fall in their division based on Brady leaving. Cassell played very well…But you are taliking about one of the best QBs ever…IMO the Jags are bad at developing players and always have been in the Del Rio era..Remember they wanted sanchez..>do you think he comes into Jacksonville and plays better than he has in New York…I would say the offense talent in New York surpasses what we have in Jacksonville…I personally don’t see Sanchez panning out for years to come. I magine if we used our pick on him…
Yes. It matters who the QB's coaches are
Players play. Coaches Coach.
Aaron Rodgers didn’t learn anything from Brett Favre.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
Vanilla Blitzes
Did anybody else think that was kinda strange coming from WW?? 3-4 in our near future???
PLEASE I BEG OF YOU, STOP WITH THE 3-4 TALK!!!!!!!!!
we do not have the personnel and considering odds are there are no OTAs and reduced camp, it is going to be damn near impossible to implement and run with and expect instant results.
Just because you can switch between 3-4 and 4-3 in Madden several times during a game doesn’t mean you can do it in one off season and expect a playoff run that same year!
"Seem" being the operative word
can you show any stats that prove that the 3-4 gets more consistent pressure ?
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
That would make a great article
Just looking at the team sack leaders the top 10 (11 since Phily and Miami tied at 10):
6/11 teams ran 3-4 or threw in the 3-4 quite a bit
Top 4 Teams ran 3-4
Highest ranked 4-3 team was the NY Giants at #5.
5 of the bottom 10 teams in sacks ran the 3-4. NOTE – the Ravens have only 1 more sack than the Jaguars this year. That shocked me. Indy only had 4 more sacks than the Jags this year.
The team with the fewest sacks in the league, Denver, runs a 3-4.
Ignore the hype; look at the results.
then again
do sacks tell the whole story? Personally with all of the statistical crap out there, I would figure pressures and hurries is a more valuable factor than sacks. Throw in tackles for a loss too while at it.
Denver was also missing Elvis so that had a lot to do with things.
^^ 100% True ^^
I know ESPN has a stat for QB Hits, but even that doesn’t tell the whole story in today’s wussified NFL, unless you’re playing against Garrard, Vick, or Roethlisberger.
Another thing; for teams that play 3-4/4-3 how many come from their base defense, and how many come in nickle/dime situations? How many sacks are from the d-line vs how many come from linebackers or defensive backs.
Stats are useful, but they’re definitely not the whole story.
Ignore the hype; look at the results.
And I'm sure some 4-3 teams
were missing their DE’s as well. Everyone has injuries to deal with
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
Dumervil had 17 sacks in 2009 and was one hell of a disruptor
His injury rendered the Denver pass rush impotent. You can’t debate that.
Sure you can
Offenses may have game-planned more against him this year and taken away his effectiveness. Every DE that has a big year doesn’t follow it up with another big year.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
how could you know someone on the other side wouldn't have broken out
Then again, Mike Nolan did leave.
My point simply was
You CAN debate it.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
I've read enough of your stuff to know you'll debate anything to the death
even if the facts conclude otherwise. No problem at all with that, at least you keep it civil.
I like a good debate
and I’ll take any side. I’m not the least bit biased.
DG is the best we have and help is not on the way. I realize he's not perfect, but I feel a lot better about him at QB than I do the O-Line, DB's, or LB's ability to cover a TE.
i think we should run a 1-10
one guy on the line of scrimmage
10 guys loading the box
Sean
Pax Armis Acquiritur
How about a 9-1-1?
9 linemen, 1 linebacker, and 1 safety. Might give up a few touchdowns, but at least we’ll get the quarterback.
You can't reason with unreasonable people.
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