I Got My Hater-Blockers On
by Mr.Awesome on Dec 17, 2011 4:07 PM EST
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A recent Fan Post here on BCC sparked up a lot of conversations which ultimately, until next season, will continue running in circles until somebody gets afforded their "I told you so" rant post, but that's not the point of this post. Since when has giving up on a 1st round draft pick ever, EVER, been a good idea before that season was even over? Before he ever had a legitimate offseason? Hell, before he even had a chance to start 15 games? I get it, we are all dissatisfied with what we've seen so far, it's hard not to be.
Can we for one minute, put the tomatoes away and remember how football used to be when it was fun? Before we were all experts of "the eye test" and before we suddenly thought statistics, madden player ratings and fantasy football were the proper way to asses a player's value? Well I'm no expert, and I never have been, but I'm a Jacksonville Jaguars fan. I stood by David Garrard until the team decided to cut him, and I knew it would be a rocky year with Gabbert, most of us did. This recent bandwagon of guys trying to bury Gabbert got me thinking about what kind of sain/logical fan can really put such little faith...or even patience into our beloved Jaguars. It's simple: the kind who cares more about winning today than winning tomorrow.
Of course, if you ask them directly, they'll say they have nothing but the future in mind, but that doesn't make any sense. You mean to tell me the guys who are sitting back and waiting for the future to arrive are the same guys who haven't even given our Quarterback 15 F%^&'n games? Really? His talent is for the team to decide, quite frankly, which is why I, personally will no longer be feeding the Gabbert trolls. Either he gets better or he doesn't, end of story.
What is interesting is that these guys that are so interested in the "future" (aka replacing Gabbert with a top 5 QB this year) are not actually looking into the future. In our laps, we will most likely have either Claiborne (who many feel is a better coverage prospect than Patrick Peterson), Kalil (who a great many feel is the best OL to come out in a while) OR Blackmon (who I'm not particularly high on, but is rated by many to be the 3rd or 4th best guy in the draft and is a definite need). But we'll draft another QB, instead? Barring some crazy trade, I can't possibly imagine this benefiting us more than sticking with Gabbert and taking one of the above mentioned.
For the haters, let's say Gabbert sucks next year. The confetti will come down, Brian Levenson will be marching people around in circles and drinking electric vodka lemonades from football shaped fruit while he talks about tough David Garrard was. Awesome. But low and behold, now we have a high draft pick again. Seems natural right? Bad QB, bad draft pick? We'll have our shot at whatever flavor of the week QB there is in the 2013 draft and hell, if a QB is available, it couldn't hurt to take him.
But what if we did take, say Barkley, this year. What if they both suck? What if they're both great? What if one of them never gets the opportunity to outshine the other one. What if one loses total confidence because his replacement has been drafted one year into his career?
What if (Barkley) comes in and wins the spot, looking great, but still has no one to throw it to, or any protection and he gets hurt, leaving us with Gabbert to take over the rest of the season (in this scenario, presumably suck) and we end up with a mid-round pick in 2013 and no real shot at picking up someone significant?
I could play what ifs all day, but no matter how long I play with it, I see this: drafting a QB in the first round this year destroys our long term rebuild that is stars on offense away from being completed. If Gabbert sucks next year, we'll be picking in the top 10 and have another try, anyways, but as a much better team to bring in that stud rookie (that much of the fanbase will settle for no less than). People talk about how jumpy Gabbert is to pressure, but no one is talking about how jumpy our fans are to pressure. You want him to be tough and stand in the pocket when he delivers? Where is our toughness to look at the mainstream medias words in the face and support our team...rather than take the sack and throw our QB away?
I got my hater blockers on, now, and if someone doesn't even have the patience to give a guy 2 years before they call for his head, I have no reason to even consider reading their opinion, anyways.
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The notion that because you don't like what a player is doing doesn't measure your support for the "team"
For the haters, let’s say Gabbert sucks next year. The confetti will come down, Brian Levenson will be marching people around in circles and drinking electric vodka lemonades from football shaped fruit while he talks about tough David Garrard was. Awesome. But low and behold, now we have a high draft pick again. Seems natural right? Bad QB, bad draft pick? We’ll have our shot at whatever flavor of the week QB there is in the 2013 draft and hell, if a QB is available, it couldn’t hurt to take him.
This is a lose lose situation… no fan wants a player to fail. But you can’t become blinded to reality because you are a fan. Most level headed fans aren’t going to have a fire blaine gabbert party. It is the desire to win regardless of who is in the game that sparks this.
It comes down to this >> instincts. Gabberts issues are instinctive issues. NO one can help him develop instincts in sensing a pass rush or where to move or how to keep his focus down field while allowing rushers to get washed up field…no body can teach instincts. You can’t practice any of the flaws that he is displaying. Infact no one can even evaluate the recieving core because of it.
The truth is when a player has a instinctive flaw it never gets better.. You can’t all of a sudden get better at a instinctive trait. His issues aren’t a matter of experience or knowing the playbook. The issues he has are likely too continue to be his issues 10 years from now.
Joey Harrington is the perfect example. Accurate.. smart…lights out on his pro day… knew the offence.. good arm. But all of that goes in the trash if you dont’ have the instincts in the pocket. These type of flaws never become innate strenghts.. and without a doubt is the single most important skill for a quarterback.
What if (Barkley) comes in and wins the spot, looking great, but still has no one to throw it to, or any protection and he gets hurt, leaving us with Gabbert to take over the rest of the season (in this scenario, presumably suck) and we end up with a mid-round pick in 2013 and no real shot at picking up someone significant?
This isn’t a matter of "oh gawd picking a quarterback again. It is a matter of the scouting department doing their job and picking the right quarterback. It doesn’t matter who is selected if they don’t have the proper evaluations and scouting environment…. what i see in Jacksonville is a organization that doesn’t have good evaluators. Often the trait of this weakness is if the Teams “big board” looks like the media’s. If you are a good sound evaluator you will have a much different board and not draft based on hype. Gabbert was a terrible pick in the first place…and sticking with him even though he is displaying the traits EVERYONE said could make him a bust is just a waste of 2 years…it is a choice to be PC instead of going for the win… it is a draw play on 3rd and 10. And that mentality is the difference between this organization and winning ones.
This is what is said from a post about Gabbert pre draft
With just a eyeball test it appears that there is really only one difference between Newton and Gabbert …pocket presence. As i think both are very instinctive passers and can deliever the football. I would warn that ..when you look at the great quarterback in the NFL one aspect of Newtons game this is underplayed is his composure as a passer. Just note how he sets up his offensive line blocks and stands in the pocket…i worry that Gabbert may not be very instinctive in this department. And when a young quarterback is good at this aspect of the game then it makes the game so much easyer to manage. Can you learn to “feel the rush”?..i dunno. I don’t think you can…that is like a running back all of a sudden having better vision. It really is a instinctive aspect of a quarterbacks game. You can’t just practice it….trust me we tried with Joey Harrington for years and that never played out anywhere he played.
Cam Newton passing from the pocket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE_fYORFXa8&feature=player_embedded
Cam Newton responding to pressure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvpZyJvmupM&feature=player_embedded
Cam Newton deep passes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm6Vmg-tACc&feature=player_embedded
Blaine Gabbert highlights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BB0mwOBMg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7UUuIvBof8&feature=related
blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5nGYHLeB2g&feature=related
What i note is that Newton looks like what many claim Gabbert is….and Gabbert looks like what many say Newton is
One thing no one wants to talk about with Newton…pocket presence. He isn’t rattled …he isn’t scared…when all hell is breaking down around him he is calm. He is very decisive and makes good choices with the football. And against the blitz his completion % went UP to 70%!!!!…watch any video of him and you note that IN THE POCKET he remains calm and focus down the field…now watch Gabbert and you will see a QB that has happy feet and reads one side of the field and takes off…you will see a qb that doesn’t “feel the rush” and looks at the rush….Newton doesn’t do that his focus is down field the entire time and he feels the rush. This is the difference between being Joey Harrington or Phillp Rivers…infact this is the NUMBER ONE SKILL SET of all franchise quarterbacks. You can’t read any defence or apply any of your so called football knowledge if you don’t instinctively know how to focus down field with your eyes at all times and “feel the rush” instead of “looking at the rush”….this in my humble opinion is the single most important reason why i think Gabbert isn’t ready and why surprizingly Newton is more advance than anyone is willing to give him credit for. This is something that was noted by ESPN as well >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZWc8ZnW0Lw (ok that horse is now dead)
It isn’t Gabbert hate. It is accepting reality. Detroit held on too Joey Harrington for 3 years waiting on this aspect of his game to improve. Built a team around him… waited.. missed on evaluations on other players found the talent level drop too a historical low. Watching free agent after free agent bypass your team because they know it too. Watching good coach after good coach bypass your team because they won’t take this job because they want their own guy… this is a recipe for a long period of losing.
This is what is happening to Jacksonville unless they do something about it… it is the right thing to do instead of waiting for him to develop a trait that never gets better. That is his identity…. not gabbert hate. Jag fans should support their team not one single player
by Shankdiddy on Dec 17, 2011 4:50 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
While I think you did a good job of research in a well thought out response
I think you missed a lot of what the point is. Fandom requires patience, ask the Browns. Ask the Rams. If you’re a Rams fan right now, are you ready to give up on Bradford? I realize Bradford had a decent season last year, but he also got to sit a while and prepare before he stepped in – a pretty reliable correlation to QBs who play well in their rookie years.
Blaine Gabbert was obviously not ready yet, I’m not disputing that and that’s not why we drafted him. Many fans were complaining that we don’t take enough project players in the JPP mold. The kind with high ceilings and low floors. The risky picks. We got him, now lets see where that potential can go with some good coaching. I’m also not going to argue his talents according to my “eye-test” because most people aren’t going to agree. As you suggested we let the scouts do their jobs…why not let the coaches do their jobs?
Cam Newton was ready to play, just like Vince Young. I think Cam is probably what Young could be if he weren’t so neurotic. Cam has also thrown more interceptions than TDs and has about the same amount of Wins as Gabbert, but with Steve Smith and a couple decent tight ends. I will not dispute that Cam is more prepared than a 22 year old with 2 years college experience, and who was brought in with the assumption of sitting for at least a good 8 weeks. Something worth note, here, but I think Cam Newton is the exact example of why Fantasy football slights our judgement on the performance of rookie QBs. Cam has had some really bad throws and some really bad decisions this year. Carolina will have to be as patient with his growth in decision making (a hard thing to learn) as we will with Gabbert’s accuracy (something said to be one of the easier things).
I think you missed a lot of what the point is. Fandom requires patience, ask the Browns. Ask the Rams. If you’re a Rams fan right now, are you ready to give up on Bradford? I realize Bradford had a decent season last year, but he also got to sit a while and prepare before he stepped in – a pretty reliable correlation to QBs who play well in their rookie years
i think there is a difference here. Bradford played leagues better than gabbert in college. Bradford had a very good rookie year..so there is a history that supports the thougth that Bradford has a chance to be good.
Gabbert on the other had ..16 TD in his last season….. and has shown nothing in the passing game nor in the pocket.
I firmly believe that Newton is clueless in the passing game. But the ONLY reason he is doing so well is because of his pocket skills… and that helps him to read defences because he can focus down field. That is why his passing is so hit and miss right now…. with the potiental to get alot better.
You can’t compare these 2 quarterbacks based on wins that is the MOST wildly off base thing to compare a quarterback on. Every quarterback has a unique situation. In Newtons case their defence can’t stop anyone. That is deeply impacting his play because you can’t throw the ball away on 3rd and 7 and think “well my defence can get the ball back”.. you can’t. If you defence is playing poorly a quarterback is a disadvantage…… example. Verse the titans the Bengals down 17 to 7 went 3 and out 3 straight times in the 2nd half. But instead of increasing the lead the Titans could not because the Bengals held the Titans to 5 drives of 8 yards or less in the 2nd half….. so all people see is andy Dalton wins. But the truth is if Cam Newton has had those situations alot this year and the defence could not hold… 10 point plus leads vs the Packers (only team in the NFL to get that big of a lead vs the Pack).. 2 TD passes to take the lead in the 2nd half vs the Saints (defence could not hold).. 12 leads in 13 of their games and the defence can’t help……INFact.. the ONLY teams that have a weak defence and a winning record have top 5 quarterbacks..so yea Newton is doing way better than some give him credit for.
With Gabbert you don’t see flashes at all and with all the quarterbacks people have mentioned …Aikman….Bradford…Stafford…. EVERYONE of them has had games and moments that caused everyone to say “wow this kid is going to be great” (or atleast decent)… If 2 TD and 2int and alittle over 200 yards vs the Bucs is what people really want to hold on too as giving them hope?…. it really just comes down too the fact that pocket skills don’t change. it doesn’t all of a sudden get better… it is the truth that mountains of draft busts have in common… they look panic and out of sorts in the pocket… it is a common them and it never gets better.. I mean if it was timing with recievers or bad decisions in the passing game.. that si rookie mistakes… this isn’t rookie mistakes it is just instinctive flaws
Bradford played leagues better in college. So?
Danny Wuerffel was arguably the greatest college quarterback ever. Tom Brady didn’t do much in college aside from the Orange Bowl vs. Bama.
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The point is Gabbert displayed very little in college 16 TD passes... Bradford threw 55TD
This difference in production is a sign… but based on eyeball test Gabbert never showed first round skills at any point. Now all of a sudden people are surprized and want to wait for him to turn into a player that people want him to be instead of “who he is”
Bradford atleast gave you flashes.. and in his rookie year he atleast showed promise… At no point in college or during this rookie year has Gabbert showed first round talent…. and being tall and looking good on a few passes isn’t “flashes of talent”.. You can point to signature moments in Bradfords career in college and his rookie year…Gabbert doesn’t have a single signature moment in college of excellents and he has shown NOTHING in the pros…
Gabbert was hyped up out of no where and now he is suffering because of it. No one can refer to anything he has done on any level.. no signature moments..no signature wins..no signature plays…NOTHING !!
Don’t get me wrong i really feel Gabbert is really a victim of this hype media environment… because skill set wise he wasn’t even talked about till Luck stayed in school.. he wasn’t.
by Shankdiddy on Dec 19, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To say that based on the eyeball test Gabbert never showed first round skills at any point is just ignorant.
kids was never even ranked higher than 5th in the big 12 in passing lol... was the 69th out of 120 teams in pass eff... so more than just eyeball test
To say that based on the eyeball test Gabbert never showed first round skills at any point is just ignorant.
that is the fan in you speaking
But think about it.. can you identify anything in scouting.. a play.. a game… any moments?.. i sure can for Bradford. Gabbert hasn’t displayed first round talent.. he had first round potiental based on measureables.. but not because of anything he did on a football field. The quarterbacks before Gabbert and Mizz played better than him.. the quarterback after him played better than him (in his first season as a starter)…
- displayed zero skill in the pocket .. check
- displayed zero ability to attack all levels of the football field (anything longer than 8 yards) …check
- no signature plays .. check
- no signature wins … check
- no signature pass … check
- no signature big plays … check
- average production…. check
- interceptions in key moments during bowl game in college .. check
what i am saying is it isn’t like this young man displayed “it” as a prospect. He looks the part and that is about it. I am speaking from the perspective of someone who predicted him to be a bust for the VERY reasons you see on display now… and i hit it too the letter…. so it is harder for me per say to find hope in a player that from what i have seen has not displayed this top 10 talent… outside of Landry Jones all of the top 6 quarterbacks in this draft are better prospects than Gabbert from what i have seen….. more productive… better instincts… better in the pocket… less panic….
it is hardly “ignorant” to have my own opinion. It bolds well to not being programmed by media hype by doing your own evaluations and thinking for yourself… clearly i was one of few very few who could see Newton would be good.. that is because i ignored the media hype… Gabbert in my opinion is a product of Media hype. He was never a first round talent at any point during the process.. and just saying “because he is” doesn’t cut it.. based on the above listed factors he just wasn’t
by Shankdiddy on Dec 19, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Danny Wuerffel, every Texas Tech and Hawaii quarterback, Eric Zeier, Shane Matthews, a litany of college quarterbacks fit this bill
Who are your top 10 quarterbacks by the way? I venture to say that you’d have no idea who Griffin was unless he beat Oklahoma.
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Who are your top 10 quarterbacks by the way? I venture to say that you’d have no idea who Griffin was unless he beat Oklahoma.
wow…hmm .. wow
Can you at least keep your ellipsis in concert with one another?
Choose one: two or three periods.
by alwaysforgiven821 on Dec 19, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
ok well i am not ranking at the moment for many reasons
for one i am not a scout. But i do wait for the bowl games to finish and to find out measurements form the combine. Certain players could infact lose value if they are smaller then listed ..health issues… legal issues….
Quarterback evaluations right now for me would fall outside of the media projections and would not be fans favorite.
1. Matt Barkley
2. Andrew Luck
3. Robert Griffin (he could be #1 after combine pending measurements)
4. Ryan Tannehill
5. Nick Foles
6. Brandon Weeden
7. Kirk Cousins
8. austin davis
i based my evaluations on pocket skills first before i go any further. I look at the following pocket traits
1. can they make positive plays while pressured ( bodies around them and incoming hits etc)…. (Tony Romo sucks at this)
2. can they avoid pressure to make positive plays (Tony Romo Excels at this)
3. do they remain calm under pressure
Landry Jones i would avoid as a prospect because of a lack of composure under pressure. Case Keenum became different quarterback while pressured from Southern Miss.
My underrated two player who are masterful in the pocket out of this draft are Robert Griffin and Kellen Moore because of the extreme amount of good decisions they have made vs tons of pressure… and that just about always bolds well
by Shankdiddy on Dec 19, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Matt Barkley is a better NFL prospect
Than Andrew Luck? This is the first time I have found that opinion.
by Green Bull on Dec 22, 2011 4:33 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I have seen this a couple of times.
Every single situation involved the person thinking Luck is overrated. Thing is, the guy is outstanding in every aspect of what we have found makes successful pro QBs. He’s like the anti-Tebow. I can understand being skeptical, but if Cam Newton and Sam Bradford were the last two overall picks, how can anyone bat an eye at making Luck the top guy.
It’s not ignorant to have your own opinion. That doesn’t mean however that your opinion isn’t in fact ignorant.
You can bellow out all the stats you want, but to say he didn’t have the eyeball test talent to be a first round pick is again, ignorant. Not to mention bellowing out stats while saying he didn’t pass the “eyeball” test is an oxymoron.
It’s not ignorant to have your own opinion. That doesn’t mean however that your opinion isn’t in fact ignorant.
You can bellow out all the stats you want, but to say he didn’t have the eyeball test talent to be a first round pick is again, ignorant. Not to mention bellowing out stats while saying he didn’t pass the "eyeball" test is an oxymoron.
taking it way too personel
Based on what i saw as noted above. That is my impression of him pre draft. I was pretty dead on. This speaks to my opinion of him not having NFL potiental. Things have played out like i predicted. This doesn’t speak to my opinion being “ignorant”. It infact says i have more of a understanding of what he is as a player… it is me accepting what i see instead of wanting to believe a media projection of what he is. … i didn’t think he showed it as a prospect then.. .I don’t think he showed first round potiental now….. it would appear my “eyeball test” is very accurate as of right now
Why the hell are you not an NFL scout?
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Where did I make it personal?
That’s fine that your impression was that he wasn’t a top 10 talent. Saying that he didn’t show you anything in the “eyeball” test being top 10 talent is what’s ignorant. It has nothing to do with being a media projection.
Gabbert had the arm, size, and athleticism that teams look for in a top 10 quarterback. What about Gabbert, DIDN’T show he was a top 10 prospect in your evaluation? He had the three major physical attributes teams look for. Bellowing out statistics in college is absolutely worthless.
What about Gabbert, DIDN’T show he was a top 10 prospect in your evaluation? He had the three major physical attributes teams look for. Bellowing out statistics in college is absolutely worthless.
i felt like everything you just said is dead on.. and i TOTALLY agree. He has the ideal of everything… but…. The very reason i felt he would be a bust is because how you respond to pressure trumps all. The defining deference between the NFL and the FBS is pressure. So when a college quarterback is phased by pressure and doesn’t have a knack for making positive plays while pressured OR escaping pressure then it doesn’t bold well.
Yes he has a good arm
Yes he has the ideal tools
Yes he is intelligent
But that isn’t where i see flaws. I saw a flaw in his game that trumps those skills. You can’t even get to the point of using any of those traits if you can not find you knack in the pocket by escaping pressure or standing in it calmly… there really is no way around that catch 22 really. That issue trumps his assets. And is THE reason i said pre draft that he would be a bust…. And it is a instinctive flaw that you really can’t become night and day better at.
by Shankdiddy on Dec 19, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He never really dealt with it in college, so how do you know it can’t improve with proper coaching?
Where was this evaluation pre-draft by you, out of curiosity?
Also, you didn’t answer my questions. Feeling a player will bust and a player having Top 10 talent aren’t one in the same. They’re very different things. I thought Vince Young would bust, but I also thought he had the talent to be a top 10 pick.
He never really dealt with it in college, so how do you know it can’t improve with proper coaching?
It is my opinion that instinctive traits can’t be coached.
Where was this evaluation pre-draft by you, out of curiosity?
more less a opinion than a full evalaution. And you can find it above in a link in the first commen on this fanpost.
Also, you didn’t answer my questions. Feeling a player will bust and a player having Top 10 talent aren’t one in the same. They’re very different things. I thought Vince Young would bust, but I also thought he had the talent to be a top 10 pick.
ahh i get what your saying. I felt he wasn’t a top 10 talent. This was me disagreeing with the mainstream media. The reason i felt he wasn’t a top 10 talent is ‘because i thought he would be a bust’.
I don’t deny that in the NFL evaluation process that he was ranked high if not the top quarterback. But it was my opinion that this was a mistake.
never said he doesn't have talent
never said that… I did say that his weakness in the pocket has trumped what skills he does have.. yea that is what is said
Hey
Pocket presence or pocket mobility is not all instinctive. It is something that can be learned. It can even be planned for depending on who’s rushing, how many rushers there, what are the alignments, what our OL is good at and just knowing your own OL in general. Not to mention a QB doesn’t do all of it’s throws from the pocket.
it is a reaction.. it is a responds to a situation .. it isn't a x and o oriented thing you can teach.
Pocket presence or pocket mobility is not all instinctive. It is something that can be learned. It can even be planned for depending on who’s rushing, how many rushers there, what are the alignments, what our OL is good at and just knowing your own OL in general. Not to mention a QB doesn’t do all of it’s throws from the pocket
Pocket awareness is really broken down into alot of different things.
- good internal clock
- staying calm in the pocket
- making good decisions for positive plays while pressured
- escaping pressure to make positive plays
There are things you can’t teach nor can you practice. Blocks don’t go as planned. Sometimes a defender wins a one on one battle. Then what the play is over? This is something that needs to the quarterback to “react to” This isn’t a x’ and o’ issue. Some quarterbacks can do it and some can’t.
Knowing your offensive line can help i guess. But you aren’t going to drop back to pass and start to think “well i know joe got my back i have 4 seconds”.. it is just a matter of feel.
And a quarterback not doing it all from the pocket plays directlly into “escaping pressure to make positive plays”
Without a doubt a instinctive aspect of the position that either you have or you don’t. All quarterbacks are bothered by pressure. The good ones can still remain realitively composed vice shaken by defenders all around them.
Can you learn this? Maybe.. but you can’t teach it too someone. Either the light bulb goes off or it doesn’t… often it doesn’t
But you can say that
about “joe”. If you know he’s not quick, but he’s big an strong and he wont give up pressure you know you can step up in the pocket. Or If “Joe” is quick and agile but sometimes he gives up inside pressure, you know you may have to escape the backside.
Or if you’re playing a fast DE like Abraham, you know to just throw the ball away instead of trying to outrun him.
There is a symbiosis between the QB and OL.
There some instincts, but it’s not all instincts. With a little instincts/feel which he has a little bit of and knowledge/time he can definitely become a good pocket QB.
all i mean is.. when you drop back to pass no one thinks about it in that manner
i mean it is really just something you feel. You feel you need to move and you do. The very nature of it is instinctive. If you do try to have a frame of reference as to how long “joe” is going to block you will become subject to moments where “Joe” holds his block longer than expected and now you just adjusted or ran because of it. OOOR you think you have more time because good old “Joe” usually gives you more time but on this play he misses his block and your blind sided. There are so many moving parts in it to look at it like that.
The only thing that you can really process is what is before your eyes and that is recievers trying to get open. If a defender is incoming and you don’t see it or you imagine that someone is coming from your blind side. The very nature of that is how a quarterback can become scary in the pocket is because they are thinking about all of that.
Only way Tom Brady can pick you apart is because he simply focus down field. Of course he hit alot and has some sacks, sack caused fumbles, etc. But you really can’t be thinking about that because your job is to focus on recievers. It is tough too do that is why not alot of quarterbacks make it because you are staring down a train track…. it is just my opinion that this is instinctive trait. It is ok to disagree.
You think about it presnap
and then you leave it in the back of your mind as an escape plan. Sure it’s nice to be able to do it on the fly, but it’s not crucial to being a good QB. I’ll tell you right now, Aaron Rodgers was nearly as good at it as he is now when he first started playing for the Packers.
It isn't a escape plan as much as a reaction
you can’t tell me out of all of the things they have to read and think about they are thinking about that lol.
Pocket awareness is just being aware of your environment and responding too it. You can’t say everyone responds the same like it is a “read”.
It is absolutely critcal to have the situational awareness in the pocket and to be composed while doing so. It affects your decision making. It impacts the ability to protect the football. Quarterbacks that are weak in this aspect of their game will absolutely 100% of the time fail on the NFL level without any doubt. The pressure in the NFL only gets more intense and defines the difference in the jump too the pros.
Aaron Rodgers not only has good situational awareness as it relates to defenders around him. He is under control while doing so. The defining reason why he is so good starts with this skill.. he can respond well to pressure in the pocket AND he can escape pressure to make a positive play… this is WHY he is so deadly
The reason Rodgers is so deadly is because
he is a great thrower of the ball.
by Ewdtrey on Dec 20, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Correct but your thinking cart before the horse
Aaron Rodgers is a great thrower of the football. But the defining reason he is so great is because he stays composed and is on balance and transfers his weight and doesn’t panic…. all aspects of pocket skills i am refering too.
you don’t even get to the point of throwing the football until you are winning the battle in the pocket because that comes first.
Austin Davis beat all the other above quarterbacks in throwing drills this summer.. All of them, Luck included. Throwing a football is great.. it is a needed trait in order to be special. But in order to even get too that point you have to be on balanced and not paniced…
You do realize that Babbert has the most ideal throwing motion and is very accurate in shorts and in practice right?.. His issue is once people are chasing him in live action….
You absolutely can not be as accurate as Rodgers is without the strenghts of his pocket skills…. calm… composed….on balance…not rattled.. transfering his weight properly… all things Gabbert is not doing and DEFINES his issues on every level.
Don't kill me for the comparison
But I know of at least one guy with very happy feet and the ability to sack himself. Someone who can read defenses and has the arm to deliver. Someone who’s ideal size/athleticism. His name is Peyton Manning.
Now I’m not saying Blaine is Peyton by any means. But what if Blaine could be coached to use his decisions making, quick reads, zip and size to deliver quick and efficient passes like Manning? What if he could be coached to keep it simple and get away when he can? This has been very successful, and while Manning can step up into the pocket (something Blaine has already shown he can do from time to time, even if not consistantly), if Blaine were to play in such a way that he can emphasize his skills and limit his weakness, I believe he can be very successful. Though an important trait, Maximum Pocket Strength and poor QB play are not mutually exclusive.
Love him or not, Tebow has arguably the best pocket awareness in the league, but can’t throw worth a damn, and when he had to step up into a shootout situation, he couldn’t hang with the patriots and only scored 14 points against one of the leagues worst defenses. Blaine put up similliar numbers against the league’s top defenses, and got sacked about as much, too.
If Blaine can’t get things together, you’re probably right that this trait may be his doom. But even if he’s never got Aaron Rodgers pocket presence, it shouldn’t be assumed he’ll bust.
Speaking of Aaron Rodgers presence, did you see how much he lost against the Chiefs’ coverage? As soon as the pressure came, he clearly fell out of his game. We got in Matt Ryan’s head a little bit in that preseason game. QBs get scared of pass rushers and start playing worse….all of em do. It’s part of football.
O I C
But I know of at least one guy with very happy feet and the ability to sack himself. Someone who can read defenses and has the arm to deliver. Someone who’s ideal size/athleticism. His name is Peyton Manning.
i agree and disagree. I agree because Manning does have a happy feet type of motion from the waist down. i disagree because Manning transfers his weight and steps into his throws and is in control in the pocket.
Now I’m not saying Blaine is Peyton by any means
ok i hear you, go on. (listening)
But what if Blaine could be coached to use his decisions making, quick reads, zip and size to deliver quick and efficient passes like Manning?
You appear to be on to something i like this, go on (still listening).
What if he could be coached to keep it simple and get away when he can? This has been very successful, and while Manning can step up into the pocket (something Blaine has already shown he can do from time to time, even if not consistantly), if Blaine were to play in such a way that he can emphasize his skills and limit his weakness, I believe he can be very successful.
You got it, lets email the rest of the NFL they need to teach their struggling quarterbacks this. Why didn’t we think of this
Though an important trait, Maximum Pocket Strength and poor QB play are not mutually exclusive.
I agree, you can be good in the pocket yet still suck. But you can’t be outstanding at throwing a football and still be a dynamic passer without the needed pocket instincts.. thats a fancy car without wheels.
Love him or not, Tebow has arguably the best pocket awareness in the league
that could be debated
but can’t throw worth a damn
that can not be debated
If Blaine can’t get things together, you’re probably right that this trait may be his doom. But even if he’s never got Aaron Rodgers pocket presence, it shouldn’t be assumed he’ll bust.
I agree i can not predict the limits of a human being. Rocky had doubters too and a freezer full of meat and Eye of the Tiger CD and good old fashion work fixed that right up.
All i can give you is my perspective and views on him as a prospect and what i see now.. can’t predict the future. My opinion however isn’t a prediction it is just my lone opinion.
Speaking of Aaron Rodgers presence, did you see how much he lost against the Chiefs’ coverage? As soon as the pressure came, he clearly fell out of his game. We got in Matt Ryan’s head a little bit in that preseason game. QBs get scared of pass rushers and start playing worse….all of em do. It’s part of football.
Ahh i did see that it was very interesting. I do believe the only possible way to stop Aaron Rodgers is to hit him. Did you also notice how two starting offensive linemen got hurt in that game as well? That played a major factor in all of the pressure he had. Just one of those things
P.S. You awesome to debate with. Very smart fan with lots of good perspective i love it. forgive my silly mode was in more of a joking mode.
lol
“this can not be debated”. nice.
thanks, you too, and anytime :)
vince young was different in that... he had some talent
But his off the field issues caused him to be a bust
It wasn’t because he could not play. He did have stuggles but for the most part if he was a choir boy off the field he would still be a Titan.
On talent alone he was good…. personality wise he was a train wreck.
+1
it was his inability to throw the passes QB’s need to make regularly regularly. It was his inability to read a defense.
he still played decent...
but yes he did get benched then had a mental break down.. so yea i agree.
I do however think they did win some games with him even if he was underdeveloped as a passer. I still didn’t see it ending up as him becoming a bust based on that. He still had a chance to develop and that chance was taken by his own off the field mistakes… but he did have flashes.. there was still reason to believe he could “get it”…. add too it the off the field issues and its not worth waiting. That is kinda what i saw
And again, the ellipsis.
Please, for the sake of all who develop a twitch due to bad grammar… start using correct grammar. I can’t read your posts without wanting to bang my head.
by alwaysforgiven821 on Dec 19, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
haha your a head banger?
rock on!!
no seriously i don’t have it turned on haha and yea i know i know i jjust type and hit enter real quick.
I don't have the hair...
… to be a head banger. I’m pretty sure I am an embarrassment to all head bangers. Therefore, for the sake of all those who head bang well and hate those who do so badly, help me to not need to head bang more than necessary. It will do us all a favor.
;)
Kidding, of course. Just needed something to tease.
by alwaysforgiven821 on Dec 19, 2011 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
ok as crazy as this sounds i have really been more into football evaluations after watching Dexter
I have no idea why
Dexter the TV show?
That would be interesting. I suppose I should watch this season…
by alwaysforgiven821 on Dec 19, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
Dexter is crazy.. and i am one of those guys who doesn't watch TV other than the News and sports
Yea dude is intense as it gets.. alll Jacksonville needs is a cereal killer coach and there you go
No, the chance was not taken away because of his off the field issues. The season he was benched was in 2008. He went on to start 18 more games over the next two season, being completely underwhelming and didn’t develop.
You kinda saw wrong.
you maybe right on Vince young
i honestly am looking at that one on the outside looking in. He has talent but for whatever reason did not develop. I still think it was more about what was going on between his ears than his talent. … but yea he is a average quarterback that can have flashes. That may not cut it on alot of teams. I felt like Alex Smith is that way he just has a ideal situation and doesn’t have the off field issues.
T.J. Yates doesn't have nearly the arm Gabbert does
Gabbert’s ceiling is much higher IMO
Bradford has looked great this year
And please try to be a bit more concise, your responses tend to ramble
by JohnnyBiceps on Dec 19, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Bradford and Freeman have both regressed as the teams around them have regressed
It’s first and foremost team sport, let’s not lose sight of that.
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Not arguing that
It’s not like I’m saying Bradford sucks or that he’s a bust. I just don’t think he’s looked great this year.
i am making a reference of what Bradford looked like pre draft...
Bradford has flashes that lead you to believe he could translate. With Gabbert it was less about flashes and more about how he looked the part. And he does look the part. But you really can’t identify with a single moment or game or play that gives you the impression “this is a first round pick”….. atleast that is what i have seen pre draft and now
the above statement really wasn’t addressing what Bradford is now and to be honest that is another can of worms
Did you watch that video kjones linked a day or two ago?
Might change your mind some. What about that long bomb to mercedes? Lets face it…we drafted Gabbert because of his arm. That 60 yards pass through the air and landed on target wasn’t a great throw? The TD pass to shorts, and the other one to hill from the 5 yard line. The one that he threaded the needle between 3 or 4 guys during the Falcons game. That win over the Ravens wasn’t a signature win? Those are all flashes.
Bradford regressed this year because his team regressed, just like Joe said. Bradford also got to sit a couple of weeks before ever starting.
Has Newton shown flashes? Yes, just like blaine has. Has their flashes produced in the same amount of wins? Sure. Does Newton also have a better offense around him? I’d say so. Has Newton also shown the he has problems of his own? How about decision making? How about tuck/running?
There is too many variables to try and analyze here which brings me back to my original point. This is for the experts to decide. All we can do is wait. Sanchez, Stafford, Freeman, Young, Bradford, Flacco…none of these guys really showed who they were in their rookie season, as they have all struggled to improve, especially their rookie years. All of them had better offenses and probably none of them have the arm strength Gabbert does as a 22 year old.
Lets stop labeling him Brady Quinn before he’s even had time to bust and watch him develop (or not develop) for a reasonable amount of time. Isn’t that supposed to be the fun part?
I don't deny Gabbert has a arm and some natural skill...however his one flaw trumps those good skills
Might change your mind some. What about that long bomb to mercedes? Lets face it…we drafted Gabbert because of his arm. That 60 yards pass through the air and landed on target wasn’t a great throw? The TD pass to shorts, and the other one to hill from the 5 yard line. The one that he threaded the needle between 3 or 4 guys during the Falcons game. That win over the Ravens wasn’t a signature win? Those are all flashes.
i don’t deny Gabert has skills. But on those plays you are refering too he has the most ideal of pockets. But in the NFL no matter how many 1st round draft pick offensive linemen you bring in there will be pressure. This is the only flaw i see it just so happens to be a very big one that is very hard to go away.
Bradford regressed this year because his team regressed, just like Joe said. Bradford also got to sit a couple of weeks before ever starting.
Bradford has been hurt and in and out of the Line up. But your right he has been ineffective. This is why i felt this is a hard comparision. Because Bradford did produce ok numbers his rookie year. So by that you can point to success that he has had. Granted it wasn’t earth shaking but there is still trends that point to potiental there.
Both quarterback face little talent to throw too. The only difference really is pocket skills and Bradford hasn’t developed any type of consistant down field threat… so they are similiar on some levels.. but not in composure in the pocket and making positive plays.
Has Newton shown flashes? Yes, just like blaine has. Has their flashes produced in the same amount of wins? Sure. Does Newton also have a better offense around him? I’d say so. Has Newton also shown the he has problems of his own? How about decision making? How about tuck/running?
wins isn’t a skill set. Cam Newton is carrying a team with no defence to speak of. Jacksonville for most of the season ranked top 5. So comparing Newton too Gabbert is silly. Newton is the reason the Panthers got 5 wins… he is the reason they had leads late in 13 out of 14 games… against green bay…against the saints…against the falcons…against detroit…. he was the reason for those leads…double digit leads by the way. Would jacksonville have lost those games with leads late like that with their defence?…..two players are not comparable ….not even remotely…in the history of the NFL no team has EVER had a winning record with a 30th rank defence and a rookie quarterback…rookie quarterback plus bad defence never = winning formula…. not even remotely comparable
There is too many variables to try and analyze here which brings me back to my original point. This is for the experts to decide. All we can do is wait. Sanchez, Stafford, Freeman, Young, Bradford, Flacco…none of these guys really showed who they were in their rookie season, as they have all struggled to improve, especially their rookie years. All of them had better offenses and probably none of them have the arm strength Gabbert does as a 22 year old.
This is the thing.. “experts” are just guys with a opinion. Just like me.. they get paid of course. But they dont have a track record to support being called a “expert”.. these “experts” get 70% of their evaluations wrong… The very context of the term bust is “their projections are off”…not the player doing anything different. It is the experts projections of what these players will do thats off.
Lets stop labeling him Brady Quinn before he’s even had time to bust and watch him develop (or not develop) for a reasonable amount of time. Isn’t that supposed to be the fun part?
The great thing about this is if he turns into league MVP they i get too eat Crow. It is up to him for the light bulb to go off.
But try to understand from my view point. If i see a player that i feel has a flaw that will prevent success. Should ignore that flaw because i am a fan of the team? It isn’t doom and gloom this is what is great about sports is he can turn it around… i am just a guy. I have a opinion that he won’t. The team still trumps the player imho.
You’re using his predraft to make a correlation to what makes a good NFL QB
But addressing what bradford is now is another can of worms? Why? Isn’t that what should be helping you determine how correct your standards are?
I think they are in similiar situations…. it is really just the raw instinctive pocket skills that are different…. Bradford gets hit without seeing rushers.. he holds it too long.. he misses recievers. But he has the greater chance too improve just because he is more composed and doesn’t look like he is in a panic.. he trusts his line (even tho he gets creamed)…and that is just what you have to do in order to be really good…or decent
Stafford and Flacco
both have bigger arms. Freeman’s arm is right up there with them too
You can see some of Freemans regression isn’t physical. He acturally has good pocket instincts but isn’t very instinctive in the passing game (can’t get ride of the football)…. Flacco has a similiar issue…..Stafford once he gets pressured the play is over. No pressure on him = big plays. Pressure on him and his skill level drops dramatically
by Shankdiddy on Dec 19, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Shankdiddy,
You obviously have a good base of knowledge. I could nit pick some of the things you said to try and get some kind of verbal victory, and I’m sure you could, too. I stand by my belief that there are too many variables to really compare.
I see a guy with great arm strength/intelligence, you seem to see the same but are very concerned with his ability to face the pocket. I don’t deny that this is a concern to watch for. All I suggest is that we allow him the time so we can sample his abilities into at least 2 seasons. A guy with his arm strength gets at least two. If he makes some big improvements next year, but still isn’t there yet, I’d even say three…but that’s way too far ahead of ourselves.
I believe in guys getting a fair chance, and despite whatever we’ve seen…if any QB had come in here this year, the likelihood of failure would have been high. I’m willing to let him get a fair shot.
I believe in guys getting a fair chance, and despite whatever we’ve seen…if any QB had come in here this year, the likelihood of failure would have been high. I’m willing to let him get a fair shot.
agreed
I see a guy with great arm strength/intelligence, you seem to see the same but are very concerned with his ability to face the pocket. I don’t deny that this is a concern to watch for. All I suggest is that we allow him the time so we can sample his abilities into at least 2 seasons. A guy with his arm strength gets at least two. If he makes some big improvements next year, but still isn’t there yet, I’d even say three…but that’s way too far ahead of ourselves.
agreed as well
To give further context to my view. It is really just what i see in him. I think that there are too many moving parts to say “what to do with him”. Every situation is unique and he could turn it around or Payton Manning could be signed i dunno. The thought that prevails in my mind is to not close the door on other options. But again i say this speaking from the perspective of not really liking him much in the first place.
You're using his predraft to make a correlation to what makes a good NFL QB
But addressing what bradford is now is another can of worms? Why? Isn’t that what should be helping you determine how correct your standards are?
so let me get this straight
You, an unpaid unqualified fan, know an NFL talent when you see it, solely from television and bitchin’ Youtube highlights. And those folks who make their living doing this, and have been judged to be a top 5 scouting unit by their NFL peers, don’t know squat about NFL prospects?
OK.
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so let me get this straight
You, an unpaid unqualified fan, know an NFL talent when you see it, solely from television and bitchin’ Youtube highlights. And those folks who make their living doing this, and have been judged to be a top 5 scouting unit by their NFL peers, don’t know squat about NFL prospects?
OK.
ding!!! you got it.
I have infact said that I did a better evaluation of these prospects.
These “paid experts” you refer too don’t get even 25% of their evaluations correct.. how could they be a expert. The very nature of a evaluation is subjective. And they get caught up in hype which hurts their ability to evaluate. I myself don’t have such issues. I don’t get paid by ESPN a company with their own agenda. They hype certain players up and if you notice that after a player goes into a evaluation process they stand by their evaluations instead of adjusting it based on new information. … Jimmy Clauesn was another funny one. I called that one too.
I am not unique as if i know everything. There are many independent Mock draft sites and scouts that call it correctly but are often ignored….. Mel kiper and Todd McShay have good points at times. But they fall pray to the hype themselfs… rarely do they give good skill set evaluations overall at quarterback…. they miss way to often to be refered too as a expert.
so you're the best?
If so, I hope you have someone proofread before you submit your reports.
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so you’re the best?
If so, I hope you have someone proofread before you submit your reports.
i don’t do scouting …. i am just a guy. And no i don’t have a mock site.
What i am doing is encouraging the average fan to simply think on their own.
And yes my grammer/ spelling/ edit sucks :)… auto correct has ruined me
One rule that'll always help:
An ellipsis (a series of periods) should stay in a series of three dots, commonly. The true rules for one are complicated, but I won’t get on you about the rest. Try and use a series of three periods every time you wish to use one, and your writing will look much better.
by alwaysforgiven821 on Dec 19, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
I.....don't..get . . .this r.u.l.e.............
by Ewdtrey on Dec 19, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So,
Their evaluations can’t be trusted while yours can? Are you claiming to be a more qualified expert than them?
I am also curious, what evidence do you have to substantiate your claim that the NFL Scouting experts are wrong 25% of the time?
by Green Bull on Dec 22, 2011 4:18 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
So,
Their evaluations can’t be trusted while yours can? Are you claiming to be a more qualified expert than them?
I am also curious, what evidence do you have to substantiate your claim that the NFL Scouting experts are wrong 25% of the time?
if you read in my above comments i said the following
i don’t do scouting …. i am just a guy. And no i don’t have a mock site.
What i am doing is encouraging the average fan to simply think on their own
The entire point is that evaluations are subjective. They can’t project talent any better than anyone else that acturally does a real evaluation
The only difference is i am ONLY looking at certain players. Where as this guys like the Mel Kipers and the Todd McShay are evaluating 1500 ro so prospects from this years class and next years class etc… They don’t get quality reporting because of the quantity of evaluations… human error.
At some point think for yourself… the worst thing i have ever heard / read is someone saying “i don’t look at their games or any film of them i just read scouting reports”…. which is basically you saying your gonna take the opinion of someone else… and the track record of pro scouting isn’t perfect…it is infact very flawed and influenced by politices and race and money and a ton of subjective comments that turn into facts….
Their evaluations can’t be trusted while yours can? Are you claiming to be a more qualified expert than them?
Trust your own judgement ..that is the spirit of what i am saying NOT trust me. IF you look at me for my opinion you would infact be doing what i said is causing this broken system of evaluations.
I am also curious, what evidence do you have to substantiate your claim that the NFL Scouting experts are wrong 25% of the time?
Yea that is a guess at how many fail and is not a fact. But with that being said there are so many projections that fail. It is really just looking at the fact that every team can look back and see that either their first round picks are either busts or under performing.. and it is a big % I don’t know how one would go into a number because it is in its self subjective… example Alex Smith was drafted number 1 overall is he a bust?..not in my opinion. But draft value wise he could be considered a bust because you expect a first overall pick to be more than a game manager that you hope doesn’t lose the game for you… so 7 years later you get some return from him. This is infact a missed draft projection… you could get this type of production from someone other than 1st overall pick.. then you could talk about players that are missed in the draft as well like that very same year they could take Aaron Rodgers
This entire concept of evaluating a prospect is subjective it ISN’T A SCIENCE. So you can’t refer to these guys as experts when they are really just giving you a caliculated opinion…. it is the nature of why the are so often wrong because it is a opinion.
Is there really something so wrong with saying that my opinion is to trust your own lol?..not mine…not theirs..yours!!
Good points,
But aren’t you trying to convince us of your perspective on Gabbert? Logically, you make arguments here so people accept/trust your own evaluations. You may not be an official NFL scout, but you are discussing it, and I assume you would want people to trust you as a valid analyst-even if unofficial and unpaid.
I agree with thinking independently, and watching games ourselves; but most of us do not have the time to evaluate too many prospects. So, people rely on the closest thing to a certified Scout Expert. That notwithstanding, I will admit there is also some opinion, bias, subjectivity, and speculation in NFL scouting-although it is a valid profession. There are too many variables and even unknown character factors to know precisely how most prospects will fare ahead of time.
by Green Bull on Dec 23, 2011 3:26 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
So are you admitting
that no one here really has any idea how Gabbert is performing nor will turn out?
END OF DISCUSSION!!!!!! NO ONE KNOWS!!!! LETS ENJOY THE END OF THE SEASON AND NOT DISCUSS GABBERT UNTIL THE YEAR IS DONE!!!!! AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I didn't
Claim anything about Gabbert’s performance. I don’t recall participating in the “Is Blaine Gabbert a bust?” debate. You are screaming at the wrong person.
by Green Bull on Dec 23, 2011 4:16 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Claim anything about Gabbert’s performance. I don’t recall participating in the "Is Blaine Gabbert a bust?" debate. You are screaming at the wrong person.
yea he is refering too me
So are you admitting
that no one here really has any idea how Gabbert is performing nor will turn out?
i am admitting that it is my opinion and my opinion is by no means a fact. As well as the experts..it is left up for you too decide that for yourself not someone else to make up your mind.
But that is why we have “blogs” and such to “discuss sports”. On my side of the fence i think he is going to be a Bust… .that isn’t future telling. And i am not trying to change anyones mind
What i am doing is discussing the context of this player. And the fact that these same traits that are holding him back are the same traits noted prior to him getting drafted….
END OF DISCUSSION!!!!!! NO ONE KNOWS!!!! LETS ENJOY THE END OF THE SEASON AND NOT DISCUSS GABBERT UNTIL THE YEAR IS DONE!!!!! AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry if this is upsetting you because i really don’t mean to upset anyone. It really is just fun to talk about sports… and very interesting topics to talk about.. this is one of them
But aren’t you trying to convince us of your perspective on Gabbert? Logically, you make arguments here so people accept/trust your own evaluations. You may not be an official NFL scout, but you are discussing it, and I assume you would want people to trust you as a valid analyst-even if unofficial and unpaid
am i trying to convince anyone he is a bust? no… i am infact NOT discussing “what should be done with Gabbert” But i am infact saying that at this point the team should consider all options because of the possibility this could go bad. Based on what has I have seen prior too him getting drafted and what i see now it increases my opinion that he will be a bust. This is only a perspective and not a fact.
I think my opinion has been slightly different than say “Brian’s” because i have really just discussed the context of what Gabbert in my opinion and not anything past that…. There are quarterbacks in the draft that i like better and so it is what it is… the process of acturally selecting a quarterback is a totally different discussion… a bridge that i cant really cross in my mind unless it is determined that “hey this guy isn’t the answer”…. considering other options is slightly different tone that “lets replace him with (said quarterback)”
I agree with thinking independently, and watching games ourselves; but most of us do not have the time to evaluate too many prospects. So, people rely on the closest thing to a certified Scout Expert. That notwithstanding, I will admit there is also some opinion, bias, subjectivity, and speculation in NFL scouting-although it is a valid profession. There are too many variables and even unknown character factors to know precisely how most prospects will fare ahead of time.
I don’t suggest the average fan sit down and review film of 1500 prospects. It is fun for ME to look at players this way… some people play video games.. so people play cards..to each their own. It is ONLY me saying keep it in perspective because experts do have good insight. But it is their opinion and by the very nature of that you can see there will be human error…. just keep “expert opinions” in perspective..not saying don’t listen too them… just saying don’t take it as a “fact”.. just like anything you hear from anyone including myself as it relates to a player…. my opinion could be very wrong.. it is good to hear others perspectives and debate them.. it is the root of how you see the forest through the trees… it is the core of how you measure players… something i think the Jags failed at because their ranking system often follows teh Media’s player rankings.. which in my opinion is a bad sign because you would like too see them think independently and pick players they like vice "who the media says is the 5th ranked corner " etc
Excuse me, correction:
I am also curious, what evidence do you have to substantiate your claim that the NFL Scouting experts are wrong 75% of the time?
Green Bull | Posted less than 5 seconds ago
by Green Bull on Dec 22, 2011 4:20 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I am also curious, what evidence do you have to substantiate your claim that the NFL Scouting experts are wrong 75% of the time?
Green Bull | Posted less than 5 seconds ago
honestly there are so many moving parts in this that i can’t give a number. It is my opinion that they get most of their projections wrong… reason i say it this way is because.. You could very well defend a draft pick not being a bust just because they played a role on the team… But some consider a player a bust because they did not meet expectations… there is not such statistcal list of busts round by round that exists…. and it in its self would be subjective for reasons i stated above… some GM’s /teams /fans bases will think that player is successful so they aren’t a bust too them… they may not perform as per their draft value but they do well in their own right… like Tim Tebow. Tim Tebow may not product numbers you would like from that draft position but he isn’t considered a bust in Denver… but what if he was with the Raiders and the defence didn’t play well and he was forced to pass?… all of a sudden he isn’t winning games and his stats start to become too much too ignore and now they consider him a bust…..
I am leaving that “75%” as a figure of speech because of this reason because you can’t quantify it as a number. But you can define that a player hasnt met expectations based on Draft evaluations….which happens more often than not… you can find some players out of the Jags draft this year that fit that discription….. you can find that on all 32 teams… that is a hard pill to swallow calling them experts… i could get a team of Bloggers form this very sit and make equal projections because you guys are smarter than you give yourself credit for… your opinions are just as valid… and that feeling you get about players are just as valid.. that is all the “experts” do.
in short
keep the sports evaluators in perspective…it is fun to read… it is cool to listen too… just keep it in perspective. Same as you would do if i had a opinion… or if you had a opinion…it is not a science… it is very much subjective by nature.
(the dots are for alwaysforgiven821 he loves them :) )
Fandom requires patience, ask the Browns.
And where has that gotten them? no SB trip ever…and no championship since 1964. 4 regimes in 12 years since 99 where each time its ‘have patience its a process." Never mind that the ’process’ is always a 5 year plan that starts up again every 2 years once the next regime comes in.
Ask the Rams. If you’re a Rams fan right now, are you ready to give up on Bradford?
Bradford demonstrated his first year that he can be a successful NFL QB already.
by jonnyphoenix on Dec 21, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Well, actually
The browns moved to baltimore where the Ravens soon after won a superbowl…and browns fans got shafted. The Ravens have mostly been a good team since. It’s funny that you mention how terrible they are, though, because they still have a strong loving fanbase. Not really sure what you are trying to suggest here. What should browns fans have done other than be fans? It’s not their fault that the only QBs they’ve drafted in the first round is Tim Couch and Brady Quinn and they were 8 years apart and both busted.
Think about how aggressive we were last year to get our defense back into respectability. You think we’re not going to be aggressive to fix this offense? if Gabbert stinks next year we’ll have a high pick and take a new guy in 2013. It’s pretty simple.
Bradford also got to sit for like 8 weeks. There are 5000 variables that make Bradford in a different situation, but the biggest similarity is how awful both play when they have pressure in their face and nobody to throw it to. Again, Gabbert hasn’t even had a summer in shorts yet. Bradford showed one really good season so far, and that’s not enough to show he can be successful. Ask Derek Anderson (since we were talking about the browns anyways) who had one hell of a one year wonder year for the browns in 2007 I think it was. He really showed how successful he can be eh?
There are so many example of guys who have one good year and fail the rest/majority of their career. Likewise, there are plenty of guys who struggled their first year and the kid is a record settingly young player without an offseason who came to us with mechanical issues. Let him get some time to be properly coached and shake the bugs out before we judge. Is that so hard?
If you can remember back, way back, the Patriots were a joke team. Almost comparibly
i dunno what happen to that espn link
but in the video Merril hodge basically said that he doesn’t have the pocket skills to play in the NFL. He showed video and broke down how he gets sacked by running right and outside of the block of the right end. How he doesn’t step up and allow defenders to get washed up field. And how that is needed in order to be able to attack down field in the passing game. He called it out too the letter. And i agreed with him completely.
This is important to point out because it shows how this is who he is. He has never been good at this essentail skill set needed to excel in the NFL. At no point has he displayed it and this aspect of his game was just flatout ignored by Jacksonville talent evaluators. There is a reason the Titans moved up in the draft and didn’t take Gabbert.
Is it really out of the question to draft a point guard that can’t dribble and hope all of a sudden he can obtain the innate instincts to handle the basketball? Is it really realistic to hope a runner that can’t find the hole will all of a sudden develop vision? It is my belief that if the Jags don’t act boldly they will find out that this trait doesn’t change.. it just doesn’t. It isn’t a matter of him not trying or not working hard or not knowing the playbook.. it is just one of those things either you can or you can’t.. Some players have traits that follow them and are their identity.
by Shankdiddy on Dec 17, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps you are right
But perhaps if given the chance he can? He has done it from time to time throughout the year. It’s not that he can’t, it’s that he doesn’t do it consistantly. Again, I’m not arguing if he’s going to be good or not. But before the season, what would you have said is a reasonable amount of time to let a QB develop? I remember comments from the summer with plenty of people saying AT LEAST THREE YEARS. Now that we’re all pissed off that number is supposed to suddenly change? That’s what I’m talking about. Give the kid a summer, first, sheesh.
I remember comments from the summer with plenty of people saying AT LEAST THREE YEARS. Now that we’re all pissed off that number is supposed to suddenly change? That’s what I’m talking about. Give the kid a summer, first, sheesh.
and that is the question… does the team owe him this? What do you think the other players will think?.. this is how you lose a team. Didn’t you hear what the Jags players said too him in the huddle. It was like the sensed it regardless if they want to say it. Gabbert said something like “hey guys fight hard and huslte we got this”.. good words you want your quarterback to say (that isn’t a quote just he said something to stir the troops).. then you hear the Jags players in the huddle say “that means alot coming from you Blaine”… and it felt like good humor from teammates. But that exchange just spoke volumes… like .. they are supporting him as a teammate but just aren’t feeling him as a player.
I have a lot of respect for your opinion
And agree with you on a couple of points, but I’d rather wait and see. Again I say, what’s the worse case scenario? We make some progress with our offense next year but Gabbert still struggles so we have a chance at another top guy in 2013? Adding the distraction of another top QB who may or may not bump heads with Gabbert before he ever even had one offseason just doesn’t seem logical to me, no matter how you put it.
want to hear my theory? The NFL is a copycat league
With the success of other rookies, the timetable has been dramatically sped up for Gabbert. It is a similar phenomenon as what occurred in the NFL in the mid 90s. Jax and Carolina made the Conference Title games in year 2, so the timetable increased for all other teams, especially Houston and Cleveland.
Just like Dick Vermiel and Joe Gibbs were famous for grinding and sleeping in their offices. So, other coaches did it, most notably Jon Gruden and his 4:17 wake up call. That’s why I believe even if they wouldn’t even admit it, they privately wanted Spurrier to succeed so they could go to a more normal job. What was the first complaint about JDR when he was fired? He strolled in around 9 am to practice, didn’t care.
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my guess is that during the off-season, the new QB coach will tell Blaine, "don't run outside your tackles' blocks, step up into the pocket."
Section 442, RIP
"You think you know, but you don't know."
But, isn't
Merrill Hodge among the class of national NFL experts whom you stated-at least in general-are not reliable enough? Or is it different when you like the expert’s analysis?
by Green Bull on Dec 22, 2011 5:29 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions 1 recs
He also likes
McShay, and Kiper.
When Kiper has been linked to certain agents, and has never addressed the fact that he promotes those recruits in his big board..
"...I'm not trying to act giddy but the guy is a stud.'' - Terry McDonough, Director of Player Personnel, Jacksonville Jaguars
what i see in Jacksonville is a organization that doesn’t have good evaluators. Often the trait of this weakness is if the Teams "big board" looks like the media’s.
that seems astoundingly contradictory to me.
granted, I don’t have access to the Jaguars’ “big board.” I’m confident no one on this site does. the Jags’ picks, however, don’t seem to follow any pattern suggested by the media, or anyone else, for that matter
Section 442, RIP
"You think you know, but you don't know."
what I see this season is a bunch of guys who were lame ducks
Some gave a damn, others did not, namely the only man in the building guaranteed a salary in the 2012 season
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You have a point.
With the exception of Gabbert, I have generally been disappointed in our recent draft picks.
For example, I cannot understand us selecting Tyson Alualu over Jason Pierre-Paul, even when their was essentially a national consensus we would choose the latter.
by Green Bull on Dec 22, 2011 5:40 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
At the time
I couldn’t fault them for the pick. In retrospect it was probably wrong. But looking at it as, was he or wasn’t he a good pick…I think you have to say he was a good pick.
I have read, in 30 games played he has 77 tackles, 6 sacks, and a forced fumble. I am not really impressed with those numbers for I think a mid-first round pick, but I am willing to wait before I decide he is a good or bad pick.
He could even become a bust, and the team’s draft decider(s) would technically be doing an ok job. But, the NFL is so competitive, there is a lot of pressure to find real playmakers if you want your team to be a decent contender. Elite teams tend to draft at least a few great, Pro-Bowl quality defensive players in the early rounds.
by Green Bull on Dec 23, 2011 3:50 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Even the Colts invested some in Pro-Bowl quality on defense,
In drafting players like Dwight Freeny and Robert Mathis.
by Green Bull on Dec 23, 2011 3:55 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Tyson Alualu was selected tenth.
I am not so sure he is really playing like a top ten draft pick should.
by Green Bull on Dec 23, 2011 4:01 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Because things have been so dire, let me offer another perspective
I’m actually more of a basketball guy, although the Jaguars are hands down my favorite professional team.
In his second season, Derrick Rose was thought to have been a bust because his numbers did not significantly improve. It was revealed though that he was playing hurt the entire year, his hip and ankle were affecting his play. Alualu has been hurt the whole year as well, add to the fact that the offense hasn’t helped out the team and you suddenly actually look at your first round picks numbers. It has been discussed before that DT is one of the worst positions to base play off of stats, and certainly this season Tyson hasn’t had really good stats. I think that the injuries have had a big impact on Tysons numbers, he has looked worse and worse to me from week 5 (I believe that was what it was) on. Before that though I thought he looked active and like a force, but after he has suffered and I think being hurt is a big part of that.
I personally will follow Bulls fans and give Tyson a pass this year like Derrick Rose was given, I think that the Jags will be a better team next year and Tyson will be a much better player when hes playing injury-free.
I will take your word for it,
Although I am curious why Alualu has played all of his career games and I have not heard about his injury from an official source, while his injury is serious enough to significantly affect him on the field.
by Green Bull on Dec 23, 2011 4:28 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
He's been on the injury report most of the year.
But has played. Similiar to MJD last year. Week 5 sounds about right.
I would rec this if i wasnt on my phone
Well done
"HULU: An evil plot to destroy the world. Enjoy"
"I find your lack of faith...Disturbing" - Darth Vader
"Just Win, baby!"
by TheTealDeal on Dec 17, 2011 4:50 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Having a glut of talent at QB is not a bad thing. It's actually the best possible thing.
I think the Eagles have shown better than any other team how much can be gained from having two good players under center. Vick/Kolb shows promise, so they ship off McNabb to the Redskins. Vick beat out Kolb, so the Eagles milked the Cardinals to the tune of a top 10 NFL corner and a 2nd round pick. All that because they assembled a glut of talent at QB and traded the guys they wouldn’t have used anyway to QB desperate teams.
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Vick was a FA signing, Kolb was a second round pick and McNabb was done
Gaining value back for McNabb was pretty crafty, but we don’t have a McNabb on our team. A FA signing and a 2nd round draft pick they already gave 3 years isn’t the same as drafting back to back top 10 quarterbacks. I’d have no problem with a 3rd round swing, or even a second round swing if somehow all the 2nd round receivers are already gone.
The point is, QBs are valuable.
So why not get more QBs? Especially if the one we have is really struggling.
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 17, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Because I don't like relying on wheeling and dealing
I like relying on good pickups, draft choices and developing.
Wheeling and dealing is a bonus
which you earn by making good pickups, draft choices and development.
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 17, 2011 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
This is directly contradictive to this:
“The point is, QBs are valuable.
So why not get more QBs? Especially if the one we have is really struggling."
No it's not.
QBs are valuable. So get more of them. If you have two good ones, and only need one, you have the freedom to deal the other to a desperate team.
Makes sense right?
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 18, 2011 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
If players' confidence and coaches weren't affected
You want our new QB coach, whoever he is, to have to spend his time divided between two new guys? You want to try and have to take an offense full of holes, bring in a bunch of new guys, AND a new QB, and have a brand new OC gameplan around two quaterbacks strengths? There are much more productive things that can be done this offseason. Seriously, man…this isn’t madden. The worse thing you could do for Gabbert when you’re trying to increase his confidence is draft his replacement a year later. What is so wrong with giving him one more year? Why you so antsy, bro?
There’s more than one guy who can coach QBs.
You bring in competition in the offseason and figure out who the better QB is, then gameplan for that guy. Gabbert was going to sit for a while when we brought him in, why not let him sit now if he’s still not ready?
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 18, 2011 3:48 AM EST up reply actions
So,
We let him sit behind a rookie who needs development too?
by Green Bull on Dec 22, 2011 5:45 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Let's also not forget the "Peyton Manning effect"
Having a good QB hides a ton of other deficiencies in the NFL. I mean, come on. Jacob Tamme?
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Now that you mention it,
How was Manning’s first year?
Here's the numbers:
Manning: 326-575, 3,739 yards, 26 TDs 28 INTs in 1998 (16 games) according to NFL.com.
Gabbert: 178-352, 1924 yards, 11 TDs 10 INTs in 2011 (12 games to date)
That’s not including that Gabbert has had 13 fumbles this to Manning’s 3 in 1998 or the amount of sacks taken, etc.
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 17, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
He also had the same amount of wins
And Marvin Harrison. And Marshal Faulk with 86 receptions. My point is any rookie QB is bound to have their problems. You think the colts of ‘98 said, "well, he threw nearly 30 picks, he’s obviously never going to get any better at making decisions." That would be rediculous.
Sure the numbers aren’t the same (here we go with statistics), but aren’t you the guy that said players don’t just make a huge leap in one offseason? What was his stats the next year?
What does this have to do with the Jags bringing in competition at QB?
And what do you think the 98 Colts said? They said “holy &%^$ !!! This rookie just threw for almost 3800 yards!!!”
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 17, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Right
With a real offseason, better pass protection (by your sack statistic), a hall-of-fame RB who is the best receiving back in history, a hall of fame bound receiver getting into his prime and 88 picks. The next season, Manning reduced his picks by nearly half, getting 13 fewer.
This has to do with being able to take a realist look at the possiblity of a player developing. Yes, Manning put up those impressive numbers, but there was no knee-jerk reaction to what is probably a record setting high in interceptions for a rookie.
Pressing the panic button is how bad decisions are made, and you are breaking your finger on it. Drafting a top 5 QB for the sake of a QB the year after getting at top 10 QB is just silly.
Why do you think Harrison's going to the hall of fame?
Peyton Manning.
That’s my point. Peyton has made every player, talented or not, on his offense look like a stud. If you have Peyton Manning, the other 52 players hardly matter at all.
If you don’t believe that a great QB covers up other weaknesses, look at the Colts. Just for one second. With Peyton Manning, they had double digit wins for like… 11 straight seasons. Without him, they’ve yet to win a game.
How much worse could that team have gotten in just one year?
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 18, 2011 2:00 AM EST up reply actions
Did i say a great QB can't cover up weaknesses?
And I suppose Joe Montana/Steve Young made Jerry Rice, right? Lol.
I frankly think that your arguing points that have nothing to do with what were talking about. Peyton Manning wouldn’t make any of our guys look anything like Harrison. I love MJD, but he’s nowhere near Faulk status as a reciever. Not even Ray Rice can touch Faulk’s pass catching abilities.
Lets see, you’re expecting Gabbert to play like Brady in Adam’s post, and Manning in ours?
This arguement is not about giving excuses to Gabbert, nor is it about what is good or bad about him. It’s about allowing a record settingly young QB who came to us as a raw guy with technique issues who never had a summer to work on them and shotgunned into the line of fire more than 15 games to show his worth. It’s about showing some patience, and allowing the kid with the best arm in the draft a chance to reach his peak before we move on. If you don’t see it the way do, then you just don’t. I’m done running in circles about it with you man. We’re clearly not going to agree here, and I got my hater blockers on 8)
If Gene sees a QB that is a “can’t miss” sure fire stud, then he should take him no matter what. It doesn’t matter what team you general manage, a stud is a stud.
by Catfanatic1979v1 on Dec 17, 2011 5:21 PM EST reply actions
If they think they have a generation guy
I wouldn’t argue the choice, so long as it’s for all the right reasons and they have a good plan to handle Gabbert. But as your next comment says, there is no need to chase the need.
But if there is no stud we should definitely go after need. I agree with the OP in part. However, we shouldn’t avoid taking a QB in the middleto late rounds if we see something we like in a kid.
by Catfanatic1979v1 on Dec 17, 2011 5:23 PM EST reply actions
Agree
I believe you give the rookie next year, with a full offseason, and weapons (wr’s) from the draft. From all the game I have recorded and re-watched. The wr’s are a joke and frankly, can imagine any rookie QB succeeding in this offense.
Agreed and Rec'd!
I hate all of these new trolls, Give the man an Offseason and a viable WR or 2 and then lets judge his ability, not while he is in this mess of a Offense we have.
by Sylvester.The.Jaguar.fan on Dec 17, 2011 10:51 PM EST reply actions
My throughts
We need to give the man a chance, Give him an offseason with a coach truly working with him on all aspects o his game, During the draft get a wr or 2 plus a offensive lineman to protect him. During free agency get a quality experienced wr to help our recieving corps, Get a offensive coordinator who is on the same page as the head coach. Get a head Coach who can work with Gene Smith and coaches who light a fire under our players to get the best out o them. Next season should be a lot dierent
Remenber it is not who you are , but what you do that defines you. GO JAGS
My thoughts exactly
Bigger fish to fry. Let the kid try.
I think it’s great that the SAME PEOPLE who so vehemently were AGAINST drafting a QB in the first round last draft are convinced the team should do so this season.
You know who you are, and it’s hilariously sad.
by Alfie Crow on Dec 18, 2011 6:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Equally funny that the guy who poo-pooed a competent if unspectacular QB
is willing to sit quietly through atrocious play from a QB playing at a much lower level.
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 19, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
There's a difference between a veteran who has peaked
and a rookie with potential.
You can't reason with unreasonable people.
If you ain't first, you're last.
I’m willing to sit through it because it was expected out of a first year quarterback on a talent-strapped offense.
As I said before the season: What’s the difference in winning 4-5 games and missing the playoffs and winning 6-8 games and missing the playoffs?
Nothing. You still miss the playoffs. I’m sorry you’re 1) Ignorant to how the NFL works and 2) so worried about patting yourself on the back.
I am interested to see how Tennessee does when they give the keys to Locker
So far, he’s looked great in spot duty. So did Kevin Kolb in Philly. Let’s see how he does when teams gameplan for him.
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Brian, your fallacy is this
You think that because Garrard was as good as he was going to get, that the fact Gabbert is not quite at that level right now, he’s as good as he’s going to get.
The ladder is a hell of a lot higher for Gabbert than it was for DG9. And the thing is, Gabbert is close.
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Good post.
Seriously.
All I can say is this: I really hope Gabbert ends up being the answer, because this team is going nowhere until there’s competent play from the QB position. I haven’t seen anything from him that makes me think he is the answer, but hey, maybe he’ll be an exception (P. Manning, Aikman, Bradshaw) instead of a bust (everyone else). And I do genuinely hope he is an exception.
I like to watch.
by MoveThoseChains on Dec 18, 2011 8:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
or build a contingency plan to be prepared in case things go south...
but hoping works too.
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 19, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
Why were you against that in the 2011 draft?
If you’re so fine with “contingency plans”, why were you so vehemently against drafting a QB early?
hell, if you think about it, what if we didn't draft a qb this past year and everything played out as is?
Garrard would have been on PUP then IR or straight IR, McCown would have been hurt and we’d likely have paid out the ass for an Orton or Palmer and lost a first round pick and some given our desperation.
Is there going to be a draft in 2013? Will they have quarterbacks in it? Is it possible that those QBs could be as good as the guys in the 2012 draft?
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Because I didn't like the QB prospects in the 2011 draft.
It was a bunch of guys who you couldn’t be sure of. I’d rather have waited for someone who’s the real deal. I thought the Jaguars would see it the same way, but they didn’t.
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 19, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Luck clearly is: NFL arm, extremely intellegent, can read defenses already at the LOS. Also plays from under center in a diverse offsensive system.
Barkley: Not as cut and dry as luck, but he’s been productive in USC in terms of yardage, TDs, completion percentage, etc. and has the arm strength to hit the honey hole. Wouldn’t be a number one pick, but at least top 10.
RG3 came out of nowhere to really surprise me this year. He’ll need a little time to get used to playing under center, but I think that’s a transition that can be made pretty quickly for most spread QBs. His offense included a lot of short passing, but Griffin also has very nice mobility, a strong arm, and manages to keep his eyes downfield even when flushed out of the pocket.
I haven’t done serious research on anyone else, but when you look back to pre-draft 2011, Luck likely would have been the number one pick if he had come out. I watched him in his bowl game this time about a year ago and he blew me away. I thought he was worth the number one pick. By comparison, the rest of the QB class just seemed… risky. Locker had accuracy issues. Newton had very limited game experience AND was a running QB. Gabbert never performed at the level he was capable of. Ponder was coming off a shoulder injury.
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 19, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
Why are they the real deal?
Why weren’t the QB’s in the 2011 draft? Because of risk? There’s just as much risk in this QB class as last year’s.
Calling Luck’s offensive system “diverse” is hysterical. He runs a double-tight pro-set offense than leans on the running game. That’s actually not diverse, at all.
Saying Barkley wouldn’t be a No. 1 pick is another funny comment. If Luck was coming out and Barkley was, he would easily battle RG3 to be the No. 1 pick.
RG3 “coming out of nowhere” for you says quite a bit. His 2010 season was fantastic as well.
There you go again… Cam Newton was not a “running” QB. Running read-option, where the QB will keep the ball does not make them a “running” QB. Just like RG3 wasn’t a running QB and just how JaMarcus Russell (LOL) wasn’t a running QB. A running QB is Eric Crouch or Tommie Frazier or Taylor Martinez.
Each time you expound, you make more and more sense… It’s great. Keep going.
Do you know they use a different football in college and the NFL?
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lets be logical here
Gabbert had no off season to prepare, had a banged up offensive line that had more holes in it then a block of swiss cheese, no targets to throw to and an offensive scheme that sucks. Lets not be so quick to throw this kid under the bus just after one season. Dalton is good because he has AJ green to throw to, Manning is good because he has the likes of clark, harrision , and wayne to throw to. Give the kid some targets to throw to and a scheme that actually works and then lets see whats up
by jesusjagfan2009 on Dec 19, 2011 12:01 PM EST reply actions
I like your Philosophy.
It's All good!
by Hurricane8765 on Dec 19, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
Your approach is the most logical....
but having said that, I do see his lack of pocket presence, and his fear of being hit as a problem he is going to have to work on. It has me concerned, but I am willing to give it some time. I do know that some things in sports are not teachable (you either have it or you don’t), but define the difference between one players ability and another players ability. There are times it is not even measurable. These same non-measurable talents can be what makes a player great, but I do think they can be developed (get better at them if you have the talent) with experience, coaching, and confidence. I look to Saturday to see if Blaine bounces back after the Thursday night meltdown. I would love to see him finish out the next two games strong! I think it would do a lot for his confidence over the off season, and I know it would be a big help to mine!
You should all have your hater-blockers on
And get over the fact that people all have different opinions. Brian & Shank both didn’t like the Gabbert pick before the draft and now your all pissed at them for not wanting to stick with him? Give me a break.
by jstnblke41 on Dec 20, 2011 4:23 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I'll rec that sentiment.
Of course, I’m going to keep petitioning for at least a backup plan and ideally someone who I trust to be good or dare I say it great under center.
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by Brian Levenson on Dec 20, 2011 7:41 AM EST up reply actions
Having a different opinion isn't the problem
Beating your opinion repeatedly and having an “I told you so” attitude is what caused all the backlash. A few people are almost too happy to point out the flaws our quarterback has. We all get he has room for improvement. But saying he can’t improve or we should give up on him after one year is ridiculous.
You can't reason with unreasonable people.
If you ain't first, you're last.
I haven't found an attitude with either of these guys posts
In all honesty theres a few members on this site who constantly bitch and moan about other things who never get any flack at all. To call out Brian and Shank to me, guys who are backing up what they say with well thought out arguments IMO, is silly.
Why don’t people call out guys who give a one liner about the WRs, get a response about the QB missing on several plays, and then respond “Your just a moron”? Or how about “This team is so predictable on offense” and then a response about how weak the OL is and what the defense is doing to cause this and then a wonderfully well-thought-out argument of “You just don’t know football”. This happens CONSTANTLY with one or two guys on this site and yet they seem to be some of the more respected posters that no one ever gives hell too. I can understand how an I told you so can come off as annoying, but if you want to hold people to a higher standard then that then I say we call out a few other guys first. Until then I consider beating up on Brian and Shank childish and petty.
by jstnblke41 on Dec 20, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion
I have no problem with that, but I think maybe you missed the point. Like somebody or not, my OPINION, is that it’s ridiculous to give up an a guy so quick. I point out that the guys who are giving up claim to have the future in mind, and I list the reasons why I think that this rationale directly contradicts thinking about the future. I then go on to map out different scenarios.
Sure I ribbed Brian a little on the electric lemon aid thing, but that was to point out how happy it appears he is every time Gabbert fails. I verbatim told him I didn’t think he was a moron in his knee-jerk reaction post a couple days ago.
Dude, of course the same guys who didn’t like the pick in the first place are the first to give up on him….“see, see I told you he was going to suck!” I’m paraphrasing, of course, but there’s no reason why we can’t debate things.
The only person beating up on Brian is Alfie, and that’s because this is an extension of things they’ve been debating for months. You’re just screaming “beat me up” when you claim Marvin Harrison would have been nobody without Manning. I think Brian is a little quick to say things like this to prove a point before he really considers what he’s saying.
Generalizing people on one side of an argument is as bad as generalizing people on the other, no? That’s just my opinion.
Thats fine
I understand where your coming from to be honest, I just don’t get the mob mentality against guys who offer actual arguments when posters who resort to calling people a moron after 1 or 2 replys get off scot-free.
I didn’t make myself clear either I guess, I just don’t see why we can have a thread thats well over 100 comments strong where a few guys are singled out when every week there is name calling and garbage spewed out by others who never get any response.
Ah, okay
I see what you’re saying. I’m not a fan of name calling, either. We should be above that.
I like to think I beat up the opinion and not the person
but sometimes I slip. We all do.
You are banned from Stampede Blue.
You can browse the blog, but you can't participate.
I don't think you took me seriously. If you want it unbanned, email an admin. But, for now, your Stampede Blue privileges are done.
You're really good at
Figuring out exactly what I’m trying to say, and saying it better.
I agree
I don’t have a problem with Shank’s posts. Those are well thought out. Brian’s too, even though I strongly disagree with his views. You are right, things have definitely gotten nasty on here, on both sides. It was almost never like this, but this season has been by far the most frustrating to watch. But that doesn’t excuse some of the posts that have been insulting of other people. I try to keep things respectful, and I apologize if anybody has been offended If I’ve said anything to offend them. But when people start calling the quarterback “a sissy” or something else, or continuously bash them over and over, they open themselves up to criticism.
You can't reason with unreasonable people.
If you ain't first, you're last.
by JagsAlex87 on Dec 20, 2011 11:11 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I agree with what you say
I try to keep it as classy as I can, but there are posters who get on my nerves to say the least. I understand having it out with someone over an opinion you feel strongly about, but I get confused when theres a bunch of guys going after one or two people when theres another dude just spewing off BS that no one ever calls out.
Then it's time to walk away from the keyboard
That’s why I almost never comment on Sundays anymore. I just don’t want to contribute to the problem that makes BCC not a fun place to come to.
You can't reason with unreasonable people.
If you ain't first, you're last.
Agreed
I love this site because the reliability. There’s rarely a false rumor or whatever up, and the few times I’ve seen it the last couple years, BCC is always the first to correct it to.
But people here act like this is the only thing going on in their lives sometimes. Calling someone a name or seeing 508450980 comments taking their hate/criticism way too far seems to be an issue with a lot of our fans. That’s why I don’t blame Vic for getting out of here. That’s why I write posts that are more or less telling people to chill out and be patient.
I agree
This has actually been one of the better SB nation sites for a long time, this season though has been a struggle. Maybe its because the entire network is getting a lot bigger and the more people that post means a greater chance that a few guys get through that don’t have internet etiquette (if there is such a thing…). And it probably has a lot to do with the team sucking :P
There are a few sites that I look at but rarely comment because there is almost a hierarchy of posters that shut down new people or not well researched arguments HARD. I like that this is a much more accepting forum in general, but at times we have to take a breath and realize we are talking about football and not life or death.
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