A few pieces away
by MadKow on Jan 16, 2012 8:08 AM EST
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PrintI keep say and will keep saying that the Jags are an average offense away from contending. Add 10 points to all our games last year and we would have been 10-6 or better. This isn't college, the parody between teams is tighter than most think. The worst team can compete and beat the best on any given Sunday, Look at last weekend as a fine example. (our win against Ravens too)
Our offense has one of the best running games in the league, All we need is enough of a passing game to exploit nine man fronts. It may not be the long ball every other down the fans of college ball want, but it would be enough to contend for division.
A full off season for Gabbert, a couple receivers and next season could be exciting.
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Close but still kinda far away.
We need a winning mentality and although we are only a few pieces away we still need a QB (whether its Gabbert that steps up, idc, i just want a good QB), 2 WR, an OG, C, a CB, and a pass rusher.
OG and C are the easiest of those spots to fill. Sadly, our season will live and die with Gabbert. You can have all the pieces to the puzzle except the QB spot and have a losing team. the pieces we are missing in CB, QB, WR and DE are not easy spots to come across. So yes we are close, but we still need those positions and even then you never know.
I worry less about a "winning mentality" than finding "players" either thru FA or draft.
Upgrades are needed at WR, DE, RT, OG and CB, depending on Mathis’ health and contract talks.
We don't NEED...
any of those positions except WR. I don’t know where you’re getting we need a guard and a center from to be able to compete at the highest level. We also don’t need a cornerback and a pass rusher to be competitive either considering we just finished as the 6th ranked defense with what we have. All we really NEED is a game breaking wide receiver and for Gabbert to become at least average and we’re right back in the mix.
Gabbert was hit on almost every dropback, and so was Garrard before him
clearly the line is not good enough, watch a patriots game and see how having 5 seconds of a clean pocket allows simple crossing routes to guaruntee one receiver will be open. Gabbert is getting less then 2 seconds constantly the interior line and RT spots need upgrades for the QB and WR spots to showcase their ability. I do agree though that WR is the biggest downfall of the offense.
Your perception...
of Gabbert getting hit on almost every dropback is off. The Jaguars allowed 44 sacks which was tied for 25th in the league but everyone here can agree that a quite a few of them was on Gabbert and some were coverage sacks because the receivers couldn’t get seperation on that given play. On the other hand our QB was hit 77 times compared to a league high 115 times. You use the Patriots as an example and while they only allowed 32 sacks, they allowed their QB to be hit 71 times. I’m sure their lower number of sacks can be attributed to them having a QB that gets the ball out faster and having a better batch of receivers and tight ends that get open more often. To the point, the offensive line isn’t as bad as they are being made out to be.
I guess my lazziness got the best of me,
I am curious though if that is at all relative to the number of drop backs, or if their are statistics on % of times hit per drop back
611 attempts for Brady and 413 for Gabbert
Brady was sacked once every 19 attampts whereas Gabbert was sacked once every 9.4 attempts and Brady was hit once every 8.6 attempts (11%) whereas Gabbert was hit once every 5.4 (18%)
I have the same math.
So to me, this means that the offensive line does need to get better at pass protection, the receivers need to get open quicker and Blaine needs to get the ball out of his hand faster.
Dont underestimate the Koetter effect
He was very predictable. People knew when we were passing the ball every time. Also one injury on the line can hurt bad especialy when your third string is guy whimper. A lot of teams turn it right around. 49ers this year. Falcons and Bengals did it recently. Jags just needed a new coach and no need like a few new players. Jags will be in the playoffs next year.
by childintime12 on Jan 16, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
I don't disagree that we need to upgrade at WR....
however, tunnel vision at WR isn’t the complete answer either. We should also upgrade other areas.
I'm not aruging...
that we shouldn’t upgrade other areas because upgrades are always welcomed. All I was trying to say is, to MadKows point, we are only a few peices away and all of those positions that bdk790 is saying we NEED, we don’t.
we do NEED those positions
CB- Cox and Mathis is gone so we need a CB
DE- We haven’t had a pure pass rusher for a long long time (watts for Houston, Jason Pierre-paul for Giants)
WR- we need a number 1 and a number 2 so mike thomas can either sit on the bench or be the slot
C- Meester is old, we are gonna need to draft one this year
QB- if gabbert fails next season, will we have another QB to turn too? Draft a QB in the late rounds so that we have options.
Punter- We need to draft a punter as well. Turk lost us 2 games
we are 5-11 for a reason. yes, our defense was actually 11th best and allowed 20 points a game. lets turn that into 15 points a game by getting a pass rusher and younger at CB.
you don’t draft punters – podlesh was suppose to be the best out of college and in the 4th round was a waste.
How many 6th rounders
Have we hit on? Draft one in the 6th and have somebody that can punt for 10 years and never worry about that position again
How can you say Podlesh was a waste after how obvious it became
That he was a vital loss to our team this year? Better punting could have changed the Panthers game, alone. One of the reasons we exceeded expectations the last few years because of our strong field positioning.
Now, do I want to punt another punter in the 4th? No way, but I’ll draft Powell from FSU in the 7th (or 6th if we pick another one up)
smh
I don’t even know what to say to this.
We were 5-11 for a reason...
Don’t think we are good at every position
You still don't draft punters unless they're the absolute best.
With one pick missing due to the Lowery trade, wasting a pick on a punter(unless we somehow get a few comp picks, which is unlikely) is just plain stupid.
Agree to disagree
I would take a Punter in the 6th considering our punter lost us 2 games this year
I will be quit honest here
a 6th round punter vs. a UDFA is not going to make much of a difference. the talent level between the two could very well be negligible
"The dictionary is the only place that success comes before work. Hard work is the price we must pay for success. I think you can accomplish anything if you're willing to pay the price." -Vince Lombardi
Twitter: @JWGreenbaum
Agreed
But drafting them ensures that they are on your team. you could say that any position by the 6th round has about equal talent level of UDFA
Couple things
Cox is not gone. CB is a priority, but we’ve got enough guys to have a solid-if-not-good 2nd corner behind Cox. If he can still play, I expect we’ll have Mathis on a one-year small contract deal.
DE – We had a lot of guys on IR for DE. They weren’t great, but they were good enough, and at times they were good. If we don’t get a DE we’ll be fine. We need one, but like CB it’s something that could wait till next year.
WR – Lets not waste our breath, this will get taken care of FA and draft. I expect our top WR to come from the 2nd round because of all that should be available.
OL – RT is a huge need. We can kill two birds with one stone if we sign G Carl Nicks, as I’m sure between Nwarni, Meester, Britton, Rackley, Estes, Haslam and Spitz there will be enough to fill the other G and C spot. Center may only be a short-term fix, but it wouldn’t be a dire need any longer. I think ideally we trade back in the first and pick up a T like Reiff, Martin or Adams.
P – Give me Shawn Powell in the 6/7 depending on what we have. He looks really, really good.
Jags D was on field more than any other team
Its hard to finish good in points when your in high stress all season long. Mincey is as effective as JPP i dont care what you think. Roth is very solid. They have to bring back those free agents. Cox is back for one last year on his contract. Punter is not a big deal at this point. Gabbert looks to have an NFL body and was durable this year. Jags need wr, te, rt, AND A STARTER ON DEFENSE. tHIS IS ALL DONE IN FREE AGENCY I BET.
by childintime12 on Jan 16, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
well what you think is wrong
mincey is good but jpp is better. to think otherwise is ridiculous
Cold Blooded
by Jaggaholic82 on Jan 16, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
He didn't say...
who was better, he said he was just as effective. Whether that is true or not is beyond me, I’m just saying. Also, I didn’t mean to be a smart ass in anyway by my comment.
Mincey is as effective as JPP i dont care what you think
You should care though what I KNOW. JPP is going to be the next Julius Peppers. Almost no doubt in my mind. When Jeremy Mincey performs at a Julius Peppers level, you come back to me. After all, all that really means is being one of the best and most athletic and disruptive of DEs that opposing offensive lines literally dread having to face and try to stop from getting to the QB.
"The dictionary is the only place that success comes before work. Hard work is the price we must pay for success. I think you can accomplish anything if you're willing to pay the price." -Vince Lombardi
Twitter: @JWGreenbaum
Mincey is clearly not as effective
since he is not actually specifically gameplanned against like Peppers is.
"The dictionary is the only place that success comes before work. Hard work is the price we must pay for success. I think you can accomplish anything if you're willing to pay the price." -Vince Lombardi
Twitter: @JWGreenbaum
With...
Terrance and Tyson on the defensive line playing next to him, there is only so much gameplanning you’ll be able to do against him. People are saying Tyson was playing poorly but obviously not poorly enough for defensive coordinators to dedicate a fair share of the double teams to him. There are only so many double teams that can go around and TnT got most of them. I’m sure we’ll see a lot more chipping happening next season, if he’s resigned, on Mincey as he could’ve had a double sack season if he could’ve finished the play. Not to say the double sack thing as if you didn’t know that already.
While JPP is clearly the better pass rusher, is he as effective against the run as Mincey? That should definately be taken into consideration here.
JPP- pretty damn complete as aplayer
Let me also ask you what it tells you when Mincey does not command double teams but a guy like JPP does in fact command double teams at times, and when he does not it is simply because a Justin Tuck or Osi Umeniyora is lining up at the other DE spot? The fact of the matter is that while Mincey is a very good ballplayer who has really stepped his game up as of late, to go out and say he is just as effective a player as a Jason Pierre Paul is ridiculous.
I mean, sure Paul Poszluzny is a very good player, but would you say he is as effective as Ray Lewis(in his prime)? I think not!
"The dictionary is the only place that success comes before work. Hard work is the price we must pay for success. I think you can accomplish anything if you're willing to pay the price." -Vince Lombardi
Twitter: @JWGreenbaum
Mincey...
not commanding double teams, while JPP does, says mainly one thing to me. That maybe the defensive coordinators that go up against the Giants aren’t as concerned with their DTs as coordinators that go up against are with ours. The strength of their defensive line is their DE’s and ours is our DT’s, therefore you’ll see a different strategy being used to defend against it.
And to say Mince is just as effective as JPP isn’t ridiculous. I’d say it’s ridiculous to say he’s the better player at being a defensive end considering their primary responsibility is to be a pass rusher. I wasn’t questioning the completeness of JPPs game. What I was asking is, is he as good as Mince is against the run? Mince missed three sacks, which would’ve put him at 11 while JPP had 15.5. If Mince is more effective against the run, then the tradeoff in those aspects of their game should qualify Mince to be considered as effective. Again, not better as a defensive end, just as effective as one when all of the responsibilites of a defensive end in a 4-3 system is taken into account. Factor in their individual football IQ and athleticism and a more fair assessment can be formed. Obviously, JPP is the better athlete but I’d say Mince has the superior football IQ at this point. With that being said, the tradeoff between those two aspects of their game should make it even easier to say Mince is just effective at being a 4-3 end. As the gaps begin to close between JPP football IQ and Mince’s, so will the argument as to who’s more effective or not. Until then, this debate is a fair one.
As far as the Poz and Lewis comparison goes, I can’t answer that question. I’d have to go back and rate, in every phase, how well Lewis was in the responsiblites of a middle linebacker (again in a 4-3) and compare them to how good Poz is now in those aspects. Then factor in their football intelligence and athletcism to have an honest answer. Since there’s no way for me to do that, again, I can’t answer that. But if I was to sit here and just have an uninformed opinion, I’d think Lewis (in his prime) was the more effective MLB too.
We have other guys that can play the run
So there isnt really much of a tradeoff. We’d be very obliged to trade mincey for jpp. Its definitely not a knock on mincey, but its not even fair to compare them.
Im sure jpp missed a few close ones, too, while taking double teams and spending so much less time on the field than our d. Fact is, he still put up twice the sacks.
I see no reason why we can't do what San Francisco is doing
The fired their HC last year, DC was interim HC and they retained him for this year as DC.
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If Mularkey...
can do for Gabbert what Harbaugh did for Alex Smith and we can significantly upgrade the receiver position, me either.
Solution
Draft a WR either 1st or 2nd round.
Sign a FA Wr.
Draft a QB in round 4 or 5
Draft CB either in round 1 or 2nd.
Sign Cliff Avril or Mario Williams at DE.
Draft Punter 6th or 7th round.
Fix OL with 3rd round pick
now we just need the draft to break down exactly how you would like it to,
which happens… never
Besides you said earlier we need a C and OG, that’s one hell of a 3rd round pick
"...I'm not trying to act giddy but the guy is a stud.'' - Terry McDonough, Director of Player Personnel, Jacksonville Jaguars
C in the 3rd round is not unreasonable?
and picking up a Guard in FA isn’t unreasonable either.
There will be good WR’s and CB’s available with our first and second round picks. that is not asking the draft to break down exactly how i would like it to.
as for the QB in the 4th or 5th round, TJ Yates types are available in late rounds. and Occasionally the TJ Yates type turns into Brady… you just never know
I think he meant
Getting 2 players with one pick.
Another thing.
The TJ Yates and Tom Bradys aren’t just random. A team who had an Elite QB and what many would say is a solid backup took him because they saw talent in him. Not because they arbitrarily chose a qb when it was their pick. It’s funny because this thinking is the exact same reason why I think we SHOULD draft a Punter in the 7th, as long as Powell is still there (who looks like the next elite punter in this league to me-lol).
I love your enthusiasm, but TBH you have a very Madden-ish idea of how to build a team.
You're just placing the positions by round by need
It doesn’t work that way. You have to look at who is available when and go with whatever you feel will benefit the team a most. Here’s an example:
I don’t think this draft has any QBs worth a damn in the 4th or 5th, based on their current projections. Tyler Wilson is a great QB who is going back to school and will probably be at the top of QB rankings in the 2013 draft. If we’re really that bad with Gabbert next year, there are options the following year. Meanwhile, a steal like Ryan Broyles may be available at that pick.
It wont help the team to take a name at a need position. Look at Houston, TJ Yates wasn’t a need for them, and because of selecting him, they almost got to the conference championship.
tyler wilson is a beast
my personal favorite QB coming out of college the past 5 years
Cold Blooded
by Jaggaholic82 on Jan 16, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
Occasionally..
Occasionally the TJ Yates type turns into Brady, there is only one case of that, and it’s Tom Brady, I don’t know if I would call that occasionally.
Say we don’t get either Mario or Cliff, then that entire post means nothing,
THAT is why the draft never breaks down just how you want it.
"...I'm not trying to act giddy but the guy is a stud.'' - Terry McDonough, Director of Player Personnel, Jacksonville Jaguars
I agree with the Brady comment
But take it easy on him. It’s fun to get conversation started about what “could” happen.
Then there is Robert Mathis or Dwight Freeney Possibly
there are players in FA this year…
Mario
Cliff
Mathis
freeney.
Shaub
Matt Hassleback
there are 2 other QB’s bud. all I am saying is that you pick a QB in the Lter part of the draft in case Gabbert sucks again
Mark Bulger
late round QB. Tom Brady is just the guy that comes to mind, but having another QB in case Gabbert sucks is my only point
If Gabbert sucks, we're going to be looking for a lot more than just a new QB, btw
That being said, if we think there’s a good player at QB in the late rounds, I’m not against taking him, in case Gabbert is hurt or whatever. I don’t see a late rounder beating him in camp though, lol.
Relax. If he sucks, there will be options in 2013 (or 2014), and we’ll have a whole other group of high round picks to get us even closer.
i agree
every time i tell my friends about the jags and next year they laugh but we are gonna kick some ass next year i feel our main target should be vincent jackson and then draft jefferry in the first round then our recivers will be lead by the best reciever in the game and we have at least 3 good years of good mentorship with jackson teaching our up and coming recieving corps of jeffery thomas dilliard shorts and price, i relize that mathis is getting old and the cb position will have to be addressed and if you go that route then be bring in two wr fa i would say jackson/ douglas or colsten/ i know i spelled his name wrong, and either a second round pick or another fa and we will be set.
Why can’t we just draft a wide out in the first round, then second round take either a offensive tackle or cornerback and then the lower rounds just beef up on pass rusher or do that in free agency? can you imagine if we draft Justin Blackmon and then we turn around and pick up dwayne bowe or colston?
by jagsfan30302011 on Jan 17, 2012 11:26 AM EST reply actions
because the Jaguars are going to draft BAP
and WR is not going to be BAP unless the Jags trade down in the round.
"The dictionary is the only place that success comes before work. Hard work is the price we must pay for success. I think you can accomplish anything if you're willing to pay the price." -Vince Lombardi
Twitter: @JWGreenbaum
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